Europe News
Violence rocks Estonia as riots spread beyond Tallinn
By Ben Nimmo Apr 28, 2007, 1:04 GMT
Estonian policemen arrest a protestor during a demonstration against the removal of a Soviet war memorial in Tallinn, Estonia, 27 April 2007. The centre of Tallinn braced for a possible second night of rioting over the fate of a Soviet memorial. EPA/STR
Tallinn - Estonia was rocked by a second night of rioting on Friday as violence broke out in the capital, Tallinn, and the eastern town of Johvi.
In Tallinn, several hundred rioters broke up into small groups and ran amok across the city centre, fighting running battles with police, destroying property and looting shops.
And in Johvi, in the eastern, largely Russian province of Ida-Virumaa, riot police were called in after an estimated 200 youths went on the rampage, overturning cars and smashing windows.
It was the second night in succession that violence broke out between police and Estonia's large ethnic-Russian minority. On Thursday, over 1,000 rioters devastated central Tallinn in the worst civil disturbances Estonia has seen since the Russian Revolution.
Friday's outbreaks involved considerably fewer people, but the damage caused was more widespread, according to police sources.
'It's not as big as last night, but rather than there being one big group of rioters there are now lots of little ones,' a police spokeswoman told Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa.
Thursday's riots were sparked by a decision by the nationalist government to remove a controversial Red Army war memorial and graves from their location in central Tallinn.
Estonian nationalists see the memorial as a reminder of the Soviet occupation of their state, while Russians see it as a symbol of their sacrifice in the fight against Nazism.
On Thursday morning the authorities fenced off the site as a preliminary to beginning excavations. By early evening, over 1,000 mainly ethnic-Russian protesters had gathered at the site, attacking police with stones and bottles.
One man was killed and more than 50 others injured in the running street fights that followed. Shops and bars were looted across the city's historic centre, and police made more than 400 arrests.
On Friday, the Estonian government and president appealed for calm, begging the populace not to respond to 'provocation.'
But by late afternoon, crowds several hundred people had once again gathered at the monument and in nearby squares. Many were clearly drunk and in an aggressive mood.
'Are you a journalist? Write about what these pederasts are doing to the bones of our dead, or I'll kill you!' one drunken Russian shouted amidst a flood of obscenities. He then attacked this correspondent, leaving him with minor injuries.
Riot police deployed in strength to confront the crowds, with brief stand-offs forming over a wide swath of the historic centre.
The police plan centred on scattering the crowds before they could become large enough to pose a serious threat, police sources said. By 11:30 pm (2030 GMT), over 300 rioters had been detained.
But while the tactic seemed successful in preventing a repetition of Thursday's mass unrest, the result was to scatter smaller crowds of rioters across a wide area.
By midnight, 23 people had been reported injured, including three police officers. Two of the victims were in a serious condition, officials said.
The controversy surrounding the war memorial began last May, when ethnic Russians and Estonians scuffled at the monument on the anniversary of the Soviet victory in World War II.
Following the clashes, the nationalist government pledged to move the monument to a less central location. Their initial plan had been to make the move in late April or early May after forensic excavations around the site's central statue.
But as Thursday's rioting reached its height, ministers ordered that the statue be moved immediately in an attempt to remove the focus of the demonstrations. By dawn on Friday, it was gone.
The rioters were not.
© 2007 dpa - Deutsche Presse-AgenturCOMMENT
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Older Talkback
page: 1
Interesting, this statue is a symbol of communism...
so, Estonians see in that statue as something what took away their freedom (remember, Russians just concurred whole Estonia and then forced Estonians to speak Russia, give up their properties, and those who were rich or famous they were basically killed. Russia transported against all Estonians will 'people who didn't fit into communism rezime' over 10,000 kilometers away and usually then killed them and buried them).
Russia, forced Estonia people against their own will to fight in many wars... and that's the statue all about - for Estonian it's a statue of slavery.
however, in the same time, some Russians don't see the whole situation in that way... (probably it's because their parents or grandparents were ones who were transported against their will to Estonia. These Russian people don't watch Estonia news - they just listen Putin - and Putin likes communism... in Russia there is communism... he likes power... and if he could he would like to own the whole world ... and be even greater than Hitler!
Why dont they just do what they planned in the beginning of all that ?
Set it up somewhere else at a least central place.
I dont know what the statue looked like but another possibility would be to remove the soviet symbols from it and leave it as a memorial for the ww2 red army soldiers without the obligatory worship symbols of communism. Many of the soviet soldiers were no real communists anyway.
in our country (Lithuania) we have removed almost all soviet monuments in the same year as we get independency back (in 1991). Do that in 2007 is a little bit too late. i think if lithuanians do the same it can spark a riots - at least in our capital, where live enough pro-russians.
ag
This nation is a terrible place- I've lived and worked there. People see that you're not from there- even though I'm white/blond/blue- and spit on you. Getting into a fight is easy there- they walk up and start telling you to leave and go elsewhere and get aggressive. Forget it if you have a girlfriend there- its a sure invitation for fights- you've taken something for which they will never forgive you- one of their own who can possibly make a baby with a non-Estonian bloodline.
I seriously hope that Russia absorbs them again- they deserve that and more- their minds are closed, blocked, and full of jealousy and hatred. Latvia and Lithuania are TOTALLY opposite- good people, friendly- even welcoming... Estonia is a poor example of freedom and any democracy.
well, the story presented in strange way by biased media in Europe.
if everything is good - why do you think people would risk own life and prosperity by getting into trouble with police?
it is difficult to get thru without knowing the background.
since i used to live there i can give a short story about things.
estonia got independence from ussr in 1991. by that time gorby was successful with one thing only - loosing political power while destroying communist party rule of soviet state.
in general, whole society did support him, as it was clear to everyone that 'bright future' of 'new world' exists in only in minds of lunatic leaders of communist’s party. this point of view was equally spreaded over all nations inside ussr.
even more. one of the stone corners of communist’s propaganda was denying role of nationality identity. there were creating 'soviet nation'. as a matter of fact - they did succeed with that. nobody within ussr really bothered about nationality. people were switching between nationalities as they wished. the only difference was when national identity was obvious like south of ussr where most of people were muslims and frankly they had cultural gaps with people which were living on north.
one of the side effects of life in ussr was free move of workforce within country. economic development was scripted by so called '5years plans'. they were developed by soviet economists and confirmed by top communist’s party assembly.
this has meaning here because people were moving from part country to another according so called 'party work demand'.
also, since it was one country - no one considered such relocation as emigration/migration and did not see himself as immigrant to foreign state. not at all. you are soviet, responded to 'party demand' on your 'civil duty'. that as it was by that time.
also, i need to say - that people had no ability to move according just their wish. you had to be useful in new place and it had to be justified by demand from local authority. normally these demands were caused by '5years plans' of region development. '5years plans' were developed and approved with heavy involvement of local specialists and region administration.
there were rigid norms regarding how many locals must be presented in local regional administration. that norm was different for different regions, but it never was less than 51%. i.e. even under centralized communists rule from moscow - local communists always were in charge at regional level.
also, communists assembly which was formally in charge to approve '5years plans' was a representation of communists from regions. they were delegated for this purpose from their local regional communist party 'cells'..
siuation in the ussr was demanding such mobility of workforce due ambitious competition with 'kapitalist world'. after war, many regions were in ruins and industry growth was imperative to economic development.
all above just to give a little background how people over sudden found themselves foreigners in the country which they were honestly considered as a motherland.
so, people were moved to work and they did it hard hoping for better future as everyone does around the world. of course they were settling down, getting families, kids, relatives .....
nothig wrong so far, right?
So, people were moved from all parts of user virtually to anywhere. If you hold demanded qualification - you may apply and go.
After approval.
this is interesting thing. approval was two staged process.
person relocation was required approval by authorities at place of present living AND by authorities of destination. this literally means that if you are living in moldova and applied to relocate to estonia - that needs to be approved by local police, local party administration, local kgb, local.... in moldova AND corresponding authorities in estonia.
frankly, it was lengthily burocratic process. it never took less than three month. with exceptions to short term relocations.
moving people around was general policy in ussr. it had to diminish local chauvinism feelings and to develop 'true internationalism'. it was recognized as very important thing in ideology and communist's party was very rigid with this one. national chauvinism was considered as instrument of proletariat division - normal practice for rule of 'western imperialists'.
that was an ideology. any nationalists propaganda was prosecuted as state threatening crime.
obviously, in such context people never had any thoughts about that their move to another region to work hard after state request and approval is something wrong or even illegal.. nonsense.
by the way - local approval as well.
of course, there are many reasons for speculations how really it did work. if there was any abuse of process etc.
of course it did happen - that was a burocracy, right? but, it was estonian burocracy as much as russian or moldovian.
however, the system in general - as i wrote above.
also, there was common practice to send so called 'yang professionals' to different from original regions. again, because of ideology and because of shortage of specialists in some regions. these people often were get married there and were left forever on new place. some of them were coming back to home cities. as everywhere in the world again.
ok now.
as you can imagine - if there is industrial development, it does require workers, engineers, managers.....
in planned economy there is always a tendency to concentrate things altogether - it decreases self cost of production for instance.
it was a common practice in ussr that there was only one/two plants for whole ussr which manufacture something very special... like microchips for instance.
such factory would be supplier to all manufactures in whole country for this type of supplies.
it gave side effects like - huge factory in small region. there is no way that region would have enough workers - by numbers and by qualification.
so what. we will bring people from other parts of country - no problem.
and people were coming. but, another effect was that - all these newcomers were coming where to? right. to work at new big factory. same time, locals were occupying themselves in regional arts, services, education, politics and administration.
it did create certain misbalance.
the important note here is - locals were responsible for how life was organized in region. they were holding all key positions. by side effects of migration and by law as well. communists established endless number of regulations to control nationalities representation in education, government .....
that actually leads to another effect - locals had tremendous influence on how regional demand for workforce going to be shaped and developed.
i.e. if local estonian managers in political administration don't want newcomers in their region - they had enough influence to block that.
and did happened many times.
If you are interested in history then: 24 hours after German army left capital Tallinn, soviets bombed 30%-40% of Tallinn into rubble. Then occupied Estonia and sent 10% of population to camps and killed. After that imported more than 200 000 russians to Estonia to practice simillar 'legal' genocide as Israel is doing at West bank and other occupied areas.
So that bronze guy was not a liberator for estonians.
i don't want even argue with such statements. check your sources.
Tallin suffered the least from all three baltic capitals diring that war. I wonder if you ever been in that city. if you would, such ideas simply wouldn't come into your head.
however, this is good example how propaganda is working.
so anyway.
as you might see from my previous posts - there were no any special anti-estonian or anti-any other nation policy inside ussr. especially anti-baltic's nations. as a matter of fact, baltic's always were in much better position than other parts of ussr. there were reasons for that, which are far away from subject.
basically, all these poor people have no any connection with basis of migration to estonia at all. they were moving within own country by state 'call'.
like americans don't see any crime in moving from nevada to texas for instance.
it was literally like that.
now imagine, that most of these 'russians' were settled down somewhere in late '40s of last century...
they did spent their lives there working hard. not criminals or rebels just people. suddenly founded out themselves and their kids as 'foreigners' or 'aliens' i.e. oppressed by state minority...
with no jobs, no rights, no future. abused on everyday basis and no hope to get help from anywhere. seems to be traded for another 'bright future' of 'new world'.
believe me - it is very hard to live in such conditions. realizing that suddenly, the state does it best to present you as 'nation's enemy'.
'russians' there started to call themselves as 'niggers'.
self-explanatory enough i think.
quite often people on west asking me if that is so bad - why they were not fight for own human rights?
well, it an interesting phenomena. as i mentioned before, in ussr any nationalistic propaganda was prohibited by law. for people grew in ussr was difficult to imagine that their nationality (which was not important) could be used as basis to discriminate them. it simply did not fit into social system by that time. nobody ever mentioned this sort of things. first, it was illegal. second, society itself was strongly against such things.
another moment. people got used with situation when everything was centrally regulated. it was wide spreaded believe that 'moscow' with it political power will not allow such things to be happen.
that is why gorby and eltsin are considered as traitors by 'russian' minority in baltics. they believe, that eltsin traded 'russians' for a little political benefits. in absence of any reaction from moscow - estionian nationalists were able to do whatever they wanted and to them it was crucial to brake any relationship between moscow and estonians.
such relationship was a natural result of common living in the same state - ussr. they've started nationalistic campaign against russia. but, there was an issue - 'russians' living in estonia.
one very important thing here. when nationalists were coming into power (another story how that was happened) it was special message to 'russians' inside country - we are going to build life without communists. it will be common home to everyone. no one will be discriminated.
frankly, everybody was OK with such message. that was why there was no any resistance from 'russians' on that time. even more, many 'russians' were actively participating in estonian political life. even by joining organizations known as 'estonian nazi' afterwards.
there was huge manipulation of people minds - it was very easy, after ussr rule.
Hitler is coming back in Estonia...
but there is no Red Army this time.
well, finally (sorry folks).
what the story all about.
as it is clear from previous posts - there are trouble with soviet times themselves.
1) term 'russians' is totally incorrect. just because all nations of ussr were moved from one place to another. ussr had about 160 nations and nationalities. by the way - ethnic estonians were coming to other regions of ussr too. exactly as any others. nobody ever (including this times) discriminated them by nationality.
again, russians were just a part of 'soviet nation'. ukranians, belorussians, georgians, lithuanians, tatars.... were moving around country as everybody else.
2) flood like 'imported more than 200 000 russians to Estonia ' is simply racist propaganda and nothing more.
it never been special program to expel ethnic estonians and replace them by 'russians' as a starter.
also, not only russians were moving inside ussr. yes, of course russians were biggest ethnos in ussr and arithmetically they always formed biggest chunk in anything...
another reason for higher mobility - education and professional level. russians in general were better educated, this resulted to higher mobility. so what? nothing wrong with it, right?
anybody who pushing on russians exclusively, frankly has own agenda to do so and manipulating facts - simply racist to me.
3)estonian communists were in control of what was happening in the estonia during ussr times.
fact - current estonian prime minister during soviet times was communist party functioner in soviet estonia....
he is 'fighting' 'imported' 'russians' for now? very funny. this is not something unusual. in latvia for instance the most notorious neo nazi party leader is former member of ussr communist party and remembered very well by older generation as person who was screaming communists slogans during public events (something like 'people and party united! uraaaa!' or 'long live to members of central come tee! uraaa!').
this nazist propaganda is necessary to justify what estonian government is doing in estonia. nothing else.
4) the biggest flood about role of 'russians' during ussr times. well, as it is clear from posts before - people were coming to work. they were building, factories, roads, buildings, homes, were working at plants, recovering country from ruins and building ussr economy. i don't know, could you point me out - what makes them criminals?
here we are coming to point. Nothing turns these 'russians' into enemies - there is no a single reason. if we talk about soviet times.
what is then?
then history was rewritten.
since manipulating ussr times was difficult, by that time especially (too many people saw everything by own) - incorporation of estonia into ussr was tweaked.
A little history for you to undestand us...www.hot.ee/vvliit/inglis_1.htm
3)estonian communists were in control of what was happening in the estonia during ussr times.
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get a clue, stop posting, you're full of shit
finland managed without outside help while paying the unfair war debt to USSR and they have very high living standards these days, and to think we were at their level pre-war..
then ussr came and ruined it already in 1940 before the war even started
now go away.
page: 1
Thoi VanApr 28th, 2007 - 02:34:32
More Peace in Europe . And i thought my home country of Peace and Love Vietnam was bad . Please ignore our death camps and mass murder .
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