Europe News
Milan hospital replaces crucifix with Mary to please Muslims
May 9, 2007, 9:39 GMT
Milan - Milan's leading obstetric hospital was replacing its crucifixes with images of the Virgin Mary to avoid offending a growing number of Muslim patients, reports said Wednesday.
'Our wards have become multiethnic. We want to respect all religions and avoid any form of discrimination. That is why we have decided to replace the crucifix with the image of the Madonna, which is also appreciated by Muslim women,' daily La Repubblica quoted Mangiagalli's medical director, Basilio Tiso, as saying Wednesday.
Some 7,000 women give birth at the Mangiagalli each year. Of these, about 30 per cent are foreign immigrants, many of whom are not Catholic.
The head of Milan's Viale Jenner Islamic centre, Abdelhamid Shaari, welcomed the move, saying Mary was a figure that was also revered by Muslims.
'This is certainly a sign of respect for our religion that we greatly appreciate. But a white wall would have been even better. Italy is a secular state and children are angels in any religion,' Shaari told La Repubblica.
The representation of the cross on which Jesus died has become the subject of a heated debate in Italy in recent years as Muslim groups and non-Christians seek its removal from the walls of public buildings.
Although church and state are officially separated in Italy, a 1923 regulation issued during Benito Mussolini's Fascist rule and never repealed states that a symbol of the crucifix should hang in every classroom and courtroom in the country.
Officials at the Mangiagalli hospital plan to replace all crucifixes within the next few months. However, patients will still be able to have a crucifix hanging in their room if they ask for one.
© 2007 dpa - Deutsche Presse-AgenturCOMMENT
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Older Talkback
page: 1
It would make more sense for someone that is not Christian to ask for a cross to be removed in their room, instead of removing all of the crosses. If they are going to remove the crosses, why not ban hijab and other forms of religious expression?
Here is my point. Censoring religion in the name of religious diversity makes no sense.
the muslim religion does not deserve respect.
it is a false religion and responsible for the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Catholics.
let the muslim go to a muslim country for medical help.
where is the backbone....the courage of the Catholic today?
the problem with the crazy muslim is they want the world to kiss their rumps.
I say send the muslim to a muslim country.
as lady macbeth said, 'OUT damned spot!'
It makes no sense at all to remove all crosses; basically that says that once again, Christianity can be expected to take a back seat to others, and of all things, Islam!! It is censoring religious freedom. Why not just remove the crosses in particular rooms? Mary is, of course, Mother of all and mediatrix of God's graces. I just wonder what Jesus thinks when He sees Himself being removed. . .God help us!!!
I believe all people should be respected, however, I am offended and I find it difficult to believe that our Blessed Mother would be pleased to be elevated over her son in such a way. Would our faith be so repected in a Muslim country that a crucifix would be hung on the wall for our benefit? I think not. Our job is to evangilize isn't it. How better than to witness the image of His sacraficial for all of us. May Almighty God, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, have Mercy on us all.
A. It's not religious censure at all! It's removing religion from a state facility, a state that also maintains its SECULARISM. As such they never should never have been mandatorarily displayed before.
B. All world religions have had adherents who have killed in the name of that religion. (Ex. The Irish Troubles, Catholic against Protestant.) Therefore let's not get started on Islam.
C. The hijab (or veil)was initially only a means of showing modesty. It is also not exclusively Islamic as at certain points during the middle ages Venician women were required to where a veil. It later also took on cultural overtones, and most recently has become used as a symbol against western hedonism, and the maintainence of an identity that is not completely West-Christian.
Why cave in to muslim demands in a European nation that is GIVING them free medical care?
Why are muslims getting all these favors?
IF YOU DONT LIKE IT GET THE HELL OUT AND GO BACK TO THE MIDDLE EAST AND SEE THE MOON CRESCENT!!
Europe is insane to surrender to all these islamic demands.
Muslims should not even be in Europe in any numbers.
I want to know when muslim hospitals in the middle east will install crosses to 'ease' the sensitivities of its Christian patients.
I forgot again, THERE ARE NO CHRISTIANS IN ISLAMIC NATIONS AS ALL OTHER FAITHS ARE OUTLAWED!!!
This is so foolish on behalf of these spineless Europeans it has ruined my day.
Another piece of evidence Europe surrendering its Christian identity to these desert roaches who bring nothing, but demand everything from the host nation.
I WILL start on the muslims.
You are very wrong.
Islam is the ONLY group (I will never call it a religion as it is a political cult posing as a religion) today WAGING WAR ON THE ENTIRE PLANET!
Are the Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Buddhists, or even atheists today bombing, beheading, raping, enslaving, and ransoming others for forced conversion?
NO!!!
It is the muslims commiting all these acts of violence and degradation against humanity TODAY AND EVERYDAY FOR 1400 YEARS so keep your European, multiculturalism, politically correct poison to yourself.
You know nothing of history or reality.
The veil is and has been used in Europe, but a woman could remove it at anytime AND NOT BE BEATEN OR BEHEADED as in a muslim society.
It was mostly used as a barrier against the strong sunlight while working in farms or vineyards.
The veil is used in isalmic nations as a form of submission and control over women.
Did you not know that reality?
If you love islam and muslims so much I would strongly suggest you move there for some months and come back later and tell me what is what regarding islam.
You are pathetic.
Somebody out there please tell me what are the muslims doing to PLEASE Europe?
If pleasing involves mass raping of European women, burning trains, buses, cars for every alleged insult against islam, turning towns and cities in crime ridden, drug infested ghettos, abusing the welfare and public aid systems, threatening European schoolchildren, attacking school teachers, and conducting mass protests in the major cities threatening death and bombings against Europeans, well than the muslims are doing marvelous job.
I majored on middle eastern history in college. What are your credentials? No seriously, what are your credentials? What have you read that backs up your ignorant and racist perception of the middle east? Ok, so you concede that you have no way to back up your statements, yet you call me an idiot. Hypocrite much?
I went to Istanbul; for a city who's religion is Islam, I didn't see too many veils. It was pretty westernized, showing that Islam and the west can feasibly get along.
All this screaming blood only alienates Muslims, and makes it harder to come to a consensus.
“The holy word of God is on everyone’s lips… but …we see almost everyone presenting their own versions of God’s word, with the sole purpose of using religion as a pretext for making others think as they do.”
Baruch de Spinoza
Maybe all this fighting in Iraq is different groups struggling for power while using religious justification.
PS My neighbor just got back from Iraq.
Good for your major and your studies, but that changes nothing.
I was a history minor with another course for a major and now working in a local hospital.
If your college did not teach you this fact I will.
Istanbul used to be Constantinople until 1453 when it was overrun and butchered by Mehmet the Ottoman.
Did you know that fact of history?
It was a city of beauty unparalleled by any other city on earth and today it is an islamic toilet.
Hopefully you saw its squalor and decay on your last 'visit' of knowledge and personally I do not want that wretched state of decay and rot on my nation here in America.
If islam is so great than why are all their nations the worst of the worst today regarding education, lack of any womens rights, protection of minorities, Christians, development, lifespan, and all the other good things of life.
You must realize you can not rationalize or debate with those people.
Islam demands only submission and utter obedience.
Sounds like slavery to me and personally islam needs to remain in the islamic world and stop its constant attempts of undermining all other nations.
Another free fact for you today your education and credentials did not provide.
Islam expanded only under invasion, subjugation, and threat of annhilation.
Tell me how many people did Mohammed kill in his life time of 'greatness'?
Now tell me how many people did Christ kill?
So much for your credentials.
I am pretty smart for just having history as a minor and not a major.
As far as I can see, religion is the cause of all the troubles in the world. When has praying ever done any good? Why doesn't your (loving caring) God - whoever he/she/it may be stop all the violence and murder and despair and poverty and crime? No it wont happen - because it is all lies to hoodwink the ignorant and provide a good living for the clergy.
Uhm, of course I know that. Did you know that Constantinople had already been sacked by the Christians of the 4th Crusade 1204?
And as far as decrepit cities go?
A. In my opinion it was more 'civilized' than Rome. The only area that looks really decrepit is the old city. If you get outside of that its completely modern with malls that put American malls to shame.
B. Have you ever seen an American inter-city?
And the and ps my neighbor just got back from iraq was supposed to tip you off that i too am american, and have great pride in the country I live in. However, as an active citizen, I have the responsibility to say when I think it is doing wrong. Do not call me unamerican because I do not have the same view points as you!
I am a 1st generation Hungarian living here in America
Yeah, I am so sure anything in islamic Turkey would put America to shame.
Now you are just insulting.
Tell me, would you rather live in Turkey or your home nation?
I think I know the answer.
Yes, I read the book by Johnathan Phillips regarding the attack in 1204.
I may be several miles ahead of you regarding knowledge on islam.
I also read '1453' by Roger Crowley in great deal regarding the final days of the Byzantines.
I am very well acquainted with the islamic butcheries of Europe against my people and Europe that they occupied and brutalized for 7 centuries before the Crusaders and others threw out the muslim jihadists.
I read very well.
Reading gives knowledge which in turn gives personal power.
So my assumptions are not far off regarding your ethnicity.
My parents came here in 1959 running from the Russians after their revolution failed and we all agree we are not running again from muslims in our own nation.
They love this nation more than many natural born Americans and can not comprehend why some people are siding with the mohamedians in this war islam is waging against the entire free world.
So then you would probably know that many of the Jewish and Christian minorities prefered Ottoman rule to that of Byzantine because the Ottomans were much more tolerant of Christian minorities, in that the only way they discriminated was to place a higher tax on non-Muslims. In Europe I believe the story of minorities was much different. The Jews were routinely forced out if murdered in the quite frequent pograms that occured throughout Europe, the first most noteably coinciding with the First Crusade. Jan the Huss was burned alive. The Spanish Inquisition was another pleasant period of European religious tolerance. 30 Years war. First & second Prague Fenstersturz.
Violence in the Balkaans was only a recent event (last 200 years) that heralded the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and any violence was blown out of proportion for the purpose of proganda and furthering the nationalist cause.
Battle of Mohacs in 1526, the sieges of Vienna, the incursions into Rumania, Bulgaria, Serbia......islamic violence was running rampant for many centuries.
Dont believe that revisionist propaganda of Jews receiving better treatement under islamic rule.
Those are lies.
Jews had their own cities in Europe for centuries.
Jews were killed and so was everyone else.
Remember, Europeans were killing each other since time began and no nationality anywhere had a monopoly on suffering.
The muslims killed each other.
Sunnis vs. shites.
Shites vs. sunnis.
It never ends.
And when the Ottomans lost control of the Balkans due to European influence, mostly Russian, Austria acquired Serbia, and a Serbian seperatist shot Archduke Ferdinand. Boom WWI. Boom WWII. It is strongly hypothesised by historians that if the Ottomans had never lost the Balkans then WWI and then clearly WWII would never have happened. But let's dismantle the Ottoman empire.
(I say hypothesised because history is not a subject that can be proved mathematically.)
Jews had ghettos in Europe. Ghettos. Isolated areas so they could access the mainstream. Cities do not equal ghettos.
Are we seeing the beginning of the uniting of the anti-christs through out the world, preparing the way for him who will set himself up as god? The beginning of the persecution of the Church by the anti-church? Will anti-Christian Americans one day unite with the Muslims in this country for the purpose of removing the Christian Church and it's faith and moral teachings from our society? If this will be so, then all Christians will have to unite and become one in the same Faith, Hope, and Love in order to be able to do battle (Spiritualy) with the anti-christ and the anti-church. Let us all remember that God is Love, and whoever loves is of God. Who ever wants to do the will of God and do what is pleasing to Him, that person must Love and be good to all. Anyone who does evil in the name of God is only fooling himself. This person is only serving the evil one. For whoever does what is good is serving Jesus Christ, who did good to all and gave his life for us ON THE CROSS! When the evil one appears he will not promote love but hate, hate for each other which will culminate in violence and death. Let us Love then for Love is of God.
I see some strong pro-Mary (BVM) statements here...you aren't suggesting she is a co-redemptrix are you...if so, that is heresy!
As for the anti-Muslim rants...it really is Pavlovian. Ring the bell and say 'Muslim' and they (the anti-Muslim idiots) start snarling and drooling.
Consider this: White supremicist neo-nazi 'christians' living in the wilds of Idaho don't represent Christianity any more than suicide bombers represent Muslims. remember Oklahoma City?
Sue is so right. If the crucifix offends you, request it be removed from your room. Why make the vast majority of the population conform to your view?
Classic example of the latest trend in political correctness ie... 'I have the right not be offended by anything'
The hospital administrator must be weak and unprincipled.
A few facts to be made here courtesy of the MAD HUNGARIAN OF 1453.
1. I dont think anyone posting here today or in the last few months is from Idaho. I live in Chicago.
2. The Oklahoma bombers had nothing to do with Christianity as they were political terrorists with a political agenda. Tell me what church were they attending? I go to a repair garage to have my Toyota repaired but that does not make me a mechanic.
3. There is no such thing as a moderate muslim and I believe they fall in the same category as the Lochness Monster and the Easter Bunny.
THEY DONT EXIST AND TRY TO FIND JUST 1 MODERATE MUSLIM IN THE USA YOU BLOWHARD!!
4. Islam has a political agenda thoroughly and detailed specifically on how to overthrow all non-islamic govts and is nothing but a instruction pamphlet on SEDITION!
All the nations today that still support HUMAN SLAVERY are all based in the middle east and include Kuwait, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Oman.
What does that reality say about the state of islam?
I dont see slavery anywhere in the Christian nations of the world so your alleged arguments are valued highly as garbage.
Please move to the middle east today as you obviously have such a high regard for those racist, sexist, murderous fiends who still live with a 7th century mentality.
Sigh, you are truly misled, uninformed, uneducated and ignorant.
Muslims can try removing what is in the Physical, like Crosses or Images All
Over The World, but can Never remove the Spirit of Christ that is living in the World in the Hearts of Men and Women. Muslims responds is in Fear and Ignorance!
Christ came for All not just for Christians.
Responding In Love and Peace and Respect of Other, We Will Have Unity!
Mary
Uses
Simbols of
Love
In
Men
Spirit
like the Crosses of Christ!
Send the Islamos back to the middle-east. It is okay for the world to discriminate Catholics. Comedians and actors show constant disrespect to Catholics. Yet God forbid if we say anything disrespectful about the Jews or Islam.
This reminds of the firing of Imus yet while accepting the foul references in hip hop, rap, and whatever the crap is called today.
In this case specifically, the entity has moved to disrespect Christians while kissing Muslim butt.
The Saudi Arabian government is placing crucifixes in their hospital rooms as per patients requests. The head of the wahabi muslims says that since Saudi Arabia is fast becoming a multi-religious nation, they have to allow symbols of other religion to be represented in their community and churches to be build. Oh by the way the Saudis government is donating lare sums of money for hospitals and for other developments that contribute to the betterment of humanity!!. They are fed up of sponsoring terrorism. Fat chance!!!
I thank Martha for actually learning before talking.
I find it surprising that it escapes many the horrific rapes and genocide that Christians commited against Muslims in Bosnia. Also, during the Crusades, just as many Christians were killed in Palestine as Muslims. Thank God the Crusaders were eventually forced out.
I also find it surprising that it escapes many the forrific rapes the 'free', 'democratic' and 'civilized' americans are commiting against iraqi women, just because they feel jealous that our women are more protective of themselves.
Beheaded for not wearing veil? No Christians in the Muslim world? That really shows how ignorant most westerners are in regard to the Middle East.
Those who really understand Islam eventually embrace it, and the large number of Muslim Reverts simply scares the rest and forces them to lie to themselves and convince themselves that Islam is an enemy to justify the continued oppression against Muslims today. We have our mistakes, yes. But if you look closely at history, you'll find most of the anger in the hearts of many muslims is caused by the west. And all the real terrorism and the fake 'terrorism' in the world today stems from western Imperialism, i.e: from the Palestinian/Israeli issue, and the western support for Israel.
OH: BTW!!! For all you angry Islamophobes, the article makes no real reference that patients actually complained to have it removed. The removal was initiated by the hospital administration and simply 'welcomed' by Muslims.
What is all this bullshit about Muslims having secret agendas??!!!
Most just want to provide for themselves and their families and live and let live.
YES THERE ARE TERRORISTS! It is a growing problem! I admit!
BUT: It stems from ~~~~~~~YOUR FOREIGN POLICY~~~~~~~
It's amazing how the west, spear-headed by the USA is supporting Israel in every single aspect, both open and covert, and then you claim Muslims have a secret agenda.
Why are you surprised, when backstabbing Jews steal land from those who protected them from Christian oppression, that hate will develop in the hearts of many muslims against Jews AAANNNDDD those who support them.
BBBUUTTT: Most muslims will tell you they don't hate Jews, they hate Zionists. They don't hate americans and don't give a damn about their way of life, but oppose their government that is oppressive against the Muslim world. Muslims saw what the free and civilized world did in Iraq (and Bosnia).
It seems you always need an enemy. It was Communism, and now Islam. You won't rest until our women take off their veils and dress in bikinis and offer their bodies to the west and tell you that by deep throating them until they cry is much more sexually satisfying to them.
I've actually seen some guys get a mexican women, have her speak spanish, and have her claim that she's arab and muslim. The veil is only the first step in your secret agenda to exterminate muslims.
We are and were the true face of freedom and tolerance. And because of that we grew weak. You abuse this weakness and oppress us until we lash out. When we lash you, you film us and tell the world we are terrorists to make the world hate us to instigate more violence in the future. You are the real terrorists.
RE: Commemt on removing 'Religious Sacred Crosses'.
For someone that is not Christian to ask for a cross to be removed from their Christian Hospital room, would make sense. If they were going to remove all crosses, why not ban Hijab and other forms of religious expressions. Censoring religion, in the name of religious diversity makes no sense.
I feel removing the cross is wrong. Everyone who knows that the hospital was Christian from the very beginning, has a choice to go to a Civic Hospital. Why should a Christian be insulted by this kind of request? We as Chistians are just as devote and sensitive to such requests and to their own religious beliefs. Submitting to removing Religious Objects are very suspect in my opinion. The brotherhood of man dose not apply outside the Muslim Faith.
After all this time up until recently, Muslims around the world are demanding their religious rights. For years and possibly centuries Islam and all their sects of Islam differs from one extreme to another. Sence 911 a clearer picture has formed for me. And I do feel there's an agenda involved,a Muslim agenda. In 1981 when Pope John Paul 11 was shot and the Politics involved & the wars after that.
For these reasons alone we all should be strong in our beliefs and do what is right according to God's words and his laws and pray for Pease.
Could you go to a hospital in a muslim country and ask the people there to take items that are dear to them out of view? But the western, PC, liberal, foolish world will do that for them time and again, how sad.
If the muslems love everything muslum ,whay do they go to live in other lands. Stay where you have your culture and leave the rest of us alone. thay offer nothing and demand everything. Wake up and start throwing them out of our countrys and leave us alone.
Mary as co-redemptrix is wrongly interpreted.
It simply means that Mary co-operated WITH the Redeemer. (Mary stood by Him at the foot of the cross.) Also Mary said Fiat to God's will for her and therefore God became man. Check out websites regarding Virgin of the Globe, and Our Lady of All Nations. God could have snapped His fingers to have His Son come to earth to redeem us. However, He chose to have Jesus come to us by way of Mary; hence the popular ' to Jesus, through Mary' phrase.
The following prayer was given to Ida Peerdeman in the 1950s:
Lord, Jesus Christ,
Son of the Father, Send now your Spirit over the earth.
May the Holy Spirit dwell in the hearts of all nations,
That they may be preserved from degeneration, disaster and war.
May the Lady of All Nations, who once was Mary,
be our Advocate. Amen
I think that the Muslims and any other minority should respect the traditions of the country that has graciously accepted them in the same way that Westerners respect the traditions of Islam when they visit or live there.
I AM SHOCKED TO READ ABOUT THE CRUSIFIXES BEING REMOVED TO APPEASE THE MUSLIMS,IN A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY.WHOEVER IT IS IN ATHORITY,WHO HAS TAKEN THIS DECISION IS CLEARLY GUIDED BY SATAN,& NONE OTHER.NO WONDER THE WORLD IS IN SUCH A MESS WHEN DECISION MAKERS LIKE YOU ARE IN OFFICE?THE CRUCIFIX IS 'THE MOST' IMPORTANT IMAGE OF TRUE HUMANITY.YOU'LL BE DAMNED FOR THIS DECISION BY GOD,UNLESS YOU REPENT,AS YOU ARE INVARIABLY SAYING TO GOD,THAT 'GOD IS THE PROBLEM'.
After reading all your correspondence:
Martha, you just don’t get it, do you? Either that or you won’t admit it.
Why are you defending Islam? That 'religion' is sadistic and vile, oppressive to women and bent on domination of all other religions. It’s responsible for 8200+ Jihad attacks in over 60 countries! (with more every day -- thereligionofpeace.com documents them all)
When Osama bin Laden said he is ‘following in his prophet's footsteps’ he’s telling the truth, and if you had actually read the Koran & Hadith, you’d know that.
It is criminal to tolerate this hateful dogma in the civilized Western world -- it’s like inviting future 911’s every bloody day! Thanks to people like you, our grandchildren may well grow up paying the Jizyah tax!
Shame on you!
Tabari IX:69 'Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.'
Tabari VIII:38 'The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded.
8.55, 9.5, 95.5, 9.111 Infidels are worst beasts and lowest creatures and must be killed wherever they are found.
Respect for all religions is a convenient excuse when the real reason is obviously lack of integrity, fear and common sense. Why do Muslims demand equal rights only when on foreign soil and not in their own country.
Muhamed, what kind of a 'religion' threatens those who wish to leave it with death. Reminds me of the song Hotel California, 'You can check-out any time you like,But you can never leave!'
If you go to a Jewish hospital, do they remove their symbols of their faith? If you go to a Muslim hospital, do they? Why is it only the Christian...specifically Catholic institutions, who are expected to 'accomodate' other religions? Have you no conviction in your own beliefs you so called Catholics? Or have you become whining hypocrites, afraid of your own shadows, and too weak to stand for Jesus who died for you!?!?
Hypocrites.
Al, to answer your question- they are not allowed the precious civil rights in their own country that the western world enjoys but certainly feel they are entitled to. It sickens me to see everyone cater to them- It is really simple, if you don't like looking at a crucifix, don't look at it! you don't like a song on the radio turn it off, don't like a book or movie watch a different one but don't expect everyone to cater- that is just selfish and intolerant. They certainly wouldn't allow me to put up a Star of David if I was in their hospital or a cross with Jeshua on it- What arrogance to think they entitled to everyone cowing to them! It is time Europe stands up and regains control of themselves that being a democracy which means fairness to everyone but not at one groups expense. Traditionally Italy is Roman Catholic- I wouldn't go to a Middle Eastern country demanding that things be changed on my behalf- that would land me in jail if not killed. They need to aclimate into the society that they have chosen repeat chosen to be a part of- It doesn't mean giving up your ideals but don't force them on others that have so graciously allowed you entry into their country.
Would an Italian Catholic, being treated in an Arabian or Iranian hospital, be
permitted to have a crucifix in the room? Or even a Bible on the bedside table?
I think not. Neither should the Italians allow the Muslims to dictate such matters
to them. If the Muslims don't like it, they will have to go elsewhere for their
treatment. There are plenty of hospitals outside Italy, not too far away in
Libya and Egypt, where their wishes will be met.
Iran, Kuwait, Oman, the UAE, and many other islamic nations.
Islam outlaws, forbids, and carries a heavy penalty if any Christians are caught worshipping or known to leaving the cult of islam.
Why does this Mohammed lie when all the truth can be easily read and verified on many internet searche engines?
People go look up on the cia.gov website and you can have much information about relgious persecution in the middle east.
Go read westernresistance.com or www.thereligionofpeace.com for more realistic updates on the horrendous conditions of relgious persecution today in the muslim nations.
Mohammed you have been caught and burned in your lies courtesy of the....
Hungarian Crusader 1453
Those muzzies never learn to quit debating when they have no chance of winning.
Re: Mirba
I don't support the acts of terrorists like Osama bin Laden. Instead I draw the line between him and mainstream Islam, just as I draw the line between mainstream Christianity and the Branch Davidians at Waco Texas, or the Sinn Fein and the Irish repulican Army in Northern Ireland, or the Jonestown cult in Guyana.
It's true, Islam right now is most on the news, but I would argue that it would be more constructive to understand the roots and thereby fix the problem then to spew murder and worsen it. To say that the only goal of radical Islam to take over the world is idiotic because that ignores that mot Muslims, just like Christians and every other religion, just want to live their lives without much trouble, getting the most out of it as possible and gain a little comfort about the afterlife on the side. In short, more people are too self-concerned to want involvement with radical Islam.
Besides, while you scream murder you at the same time go and gas up your SUV and therefore support all the oil producing countries in the middle east. You support countries like Saudi Arabia who then uses the money to support Islamic schools and mosques all over the world.
Oh, ps, while you're saying that Christianity isn't allowed anywhere in the Mid-East, google pictures 'religion middle east.' The second picture to the right on the top of the second page has a beautiful map showing the distribution of religion in the area. This map is from Columbia University.
This maps shows that Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, a few areas in Iran, Turkmenisten, Turkey, Eqypt has large populations of Christians...
the only country that doesn't allow other public religions is Saudi Arabia.
Martha, your sentiment is honorable but the facts are against you. Islam is not tolerant of other religions & even their own scholars admit this:
Maududi: 'One finds that the Qur'an was not revealed to preach religious tolerance as some people seem to think, but it was revealed in order to separate the Muslims from the disbeliever’s religion, their rites of worship, and their gods, and to express their total disgust.'
Comparing Muslims to Christians is just foolish. Where is the Christian Jihad counter (I presume you didn't bother to actually visit thereligionofpeace.com, which documents over 8200 Jihad attacks since 911)?
The simple truth is: when Christians commit murder in the name of Christianity, they are NOT following their prophet or religion.
When Muslims commit murder in the name of Islam, they ARE following their prophet and religion.
Martha, where do you think all the Christians in the Sudan have gone?
I did look at the site, and as far as I can see, there were absolutely no credentials. To which think-tank or college is this website affiliated with? I too could probably pull quotes out of context from the bible or torah that would suggest aggression. How else could people interpret the Crusades, the Inquisition, slavery (southern plantation owners used the bible, i believe it was the story of cain, to justify slavery), religious persecution in Europe against the protestants, and all the pogroms against the Jews in Europe as sanctified by God? Besides, just because it says it, doesn't mean people follow it. When's that last time people here not coveted what others have? Aka have been jealous?
Second of all, if you look at all the different groups of radical Islam, there is no one, over-arching world supremacy goal, because there is no one over-arching leader of Islam like the Pope. Islam is splintered into Sunnism and Shi'ism and both of these groups are further splintered. (The four main schools of Sunni teaching, and the multiple interpretations of Shi'ism´including Ishmaili, Twelver, Druze (by some definitions)ect. The last 'leader' of Sunni Islam was the Ottoman Caliphate which ended after WWI. Therefore, there is not one Islam against the West. This opinion has popped up in most of the anti-Islam comments, and I believe false. Also, the lack of leadership allows for the unchecked radicalization of some groups, and constant reinterpretation of texts in ways that might not go under the umbrella of mainstream Islam. Hence, just because Mawdudi says something, doesn't mean all members heed him? He is just one interpretation of many, although I commend you for reading him.
Martha, are “collegiate association credentials” required to document Jihad attacks? Are you saying you believe that list to be false? Have you not been reading the daily headlines? I challenge you to disprove any one of those Jihad attacks – please post it here!
And while you’re at it, please, please, tell us in which context would these Islamic quotes be OK:
Tabari VIII:38 'The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded.
Bukhari:V1B1N6 'Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country.
Tabari VII:97 'The next morning, the Jews were in a state of fear on account of our attack upon the enemy of Allah. After the assassination, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill every Jew.''
Ishaq:368: Our attack upon Allah's enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.''
Tabari IX:69 'Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.'
8.55, 9.5, 95.5, 9.111 Infidels are the worst beasts and lowest creatures and must be killed wherever they are found.
Qur’an: 9:29: ‘Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor follow the religion of truth, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection’
Islam's own scriptures are hateful & murderous IN ANY CONTEXT!
Whining 'it's out of context' is no justification for such evil dogma. Perhaps when there are suicide bombings on your street, you’ll at long last understand.
'Milan hospital replaces crucifix with Mary to please Muslims'
It would please me to replace the Muslims with human beings.
... a person committed to peace and who died for everyone's sins is soooo inflammatory!
I imagine Jesus up in Heaven just shaking his head thinking what are all these people doing??? He died for anyone of any background that chooses to accept him. The fact of the matter is there have been many terrible acts done in his name or the name of religion period that have nothing to do with him or what he stood for. His greatest commandment was to love thy neighbor and that seems to be the human race's biggest failing.
entire middle east my Martha the PhD of all that is islam.
Did you know, or bother to read or hear the news reports of the constant hemmoraging of the Christian minority exodus FROM THE MIDDLE EAST PROFESSOR MARTHA!
Look it up!!
Iraq is the WORST right now with Orthodox, Catholic, small groups of Jews, and Protestants leaving roughly 2,000 EVERY MONTH and you still have the audacity to claim Christians are just fine in the middle east.
Did you know Christians are being beheaded by Iraqi insurgents and our great MSM is not bothering to report it.
Apparently they only think a dog barking in the face of a known terrorist in Guantanamo Bay is human butchery and the worst of torture mankind has known in our history.
This leftist denial is why I still vote Republican.
Christian populations have been in great decline since the 1960's and has accelerated greatly in the 1980's thanks to the civil wars in Lebanon.
What is your malfunction with reality woman?
Christians are being murdered, kidnapped, raped, and sent off to slavery and you still claim muslims are tolerant and Christianity is just safe in the islamic world.
I am so done with you silly woman.
Go read the CIA website for more information, www.thereligionofpeace.com or www.westernresistance.com.
FOX news is good with also CNN on good days.
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL OF REALITY as many Arab Christians would love to tell you otherwise of their sufferings.
Hungarian Crusader 1453
Ok, this has gotten rediculous. If this whole terrorist thing is the entire Islamic world rising against christianity, because they like to kill Christians, then why aren't there a billion (estimated population of Muslims) suicide attacks against the west instead of 8,000? If the entire Islamic world was after the west then where's the big battle? Why aren't Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait, Lebanon, Turkey, Jordan, Oman, Eqypt, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, half of Africa, Indonesia, the Philipines, the stans, Mongolia, Albania, Bosnia ect. at war with the united states & europe if the entire point of islam is to wage war against the west? (Only about 20% of the world's Muslims come from the Middle East.)
Get over your paranoid selves. But before you do that, let me just tell you that by a recent report there are an estimated 6-7 million Muslims in the USA, about 2 million practicing. I really hope you can still sleep at night, because they're out to behead you, and your little dog too.
Maybe there wouldn't have had to have been such emigration from Iraq, if the US prescence hadn't created a complete power vacuum in which everyone is now fighting for power. The US army unfortunately cannot maintain absolute control of an entire country (a daunting feat indeed) so others (like the Shi'a militias fill the vacuum, and then fight to maintain power from others who would.)
And Elizabeth Picard in 'Lebanon: a shattered country' maintains that a large factor of the Lebanese Civil War was due to the immigration of Palestinian refugees (from Israel) which upset the delicate consocialist balance of power that governed Lebanon, leading to the Civil War. Therefore, the Israeli removal of Palestinians is a plausible cause for the Civil War, not that it was multi-religious.
Oh, and TELL me where to go on the CIA website. Dropping CIA does nothing for you.
Here are some Qur'anic quotes that suggest tolerance:
And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. (3:199)
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . 2:62
And do not dispute with the followers of the Book [Christians and Jews] except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit. 29:46
Martha, you really don't know your Islamic scriptures, do you? The verses you cited were ABROGATED by suras 33, 60, 4, 99, 57, 47, 13, 55, 76, 65, 98, 59, 110, 24, 22, 63, 58, 49, 66, 61, 62, 64, 48, 9, 5. You'll really get a kick out of these latter chapters, which feature the 'spoils of war' & 'repentance' suras. They also feature the really hateful dogma (previously cited) which I'm still waiting for you to justify IN ANY CONTEXT. If you actually take the time to read this crap, you must bear in mind that you also need to read the Sunnah in conjunction, as the Koran utterly lacks chronology and context. The Sunnah and Qur'an are all Muslims have. Together, they are Islam -- Muhammad is unknown to the world without them.
Now, I'm not saying that all Muslims are bad people, but their scriptures are fundamentally bad -- very bad! Hateful, oppressive, violent, just like Nazism. Would you condone a revived Nazi ideology in America? This is why Islam must be repudiated. We cannot tolerate intolerance! People like you, who are uneducated or deceived as to what the Islamic scriptures truly say, are only helping to bring sharia law to the West. As I mentioned before, when Osama bin Laden claimed he was 'following in his prophet's footsteps' -- he was telling the truth. Peaceful Muslims are not true to their dogma.
At that then would be abbrogated by Sura 109.
This has the three different translations:
YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith!
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!
109.002
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,
109.003
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
109.004
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
109.005
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
It looks as though in the end it says, to each his own, even if you are unbelievers.
Oh yes, 110, says:
110.001
YUSUFALI: When comes the Help of Allah, and Victory,
PICKTHAL: When Allah's succour and the triumph cometh
SHAKIR: When there comes the help of Allah and the victory,
110.002
YUSUFALI: And thou dost see the people enter Allah's Religion in crowds,
PICKTHAL: And thou seest mankind entering the religion of Allah in troops,
SHAKIR: And you see men entering the religion of Allah in companies,
110.003
YUSUFALI: Celebrate the praises of thy Lord, and pray for His Forgiveness: For He is Oft-Returning (in Grace and Mercy).
PICKTHAL: Then hymn the praises of thy Lord, and seek forgiveness of Him. Lo! He is ever ready to show mercy.
SHAKIR: Then celebrate the praise of your Lord, and ask His forgiveness; surely He is oft-returning (to mercy).
nothing about killing the unbeliever.
Martha, 109 was an early Meccan surrah & was abrogated many times over.
110 was also abrogated. The last surrahs handed down were 9 & 5 in that order. HERE THEN ARE THE KORAN’S LAST COMMANDS TOWARDS INFIDELS!
Qur'an:9:5 'Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.'
Qur'an:9:29 'Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.'
Qur'an:9:88 'The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause.'
Qur'an:9:14 'Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.'
Qur'an:9:38 'Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.'
Qur'an:9:123 'Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.'
Qur'an 5:51 'Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.'
Qur'an 9:29 'Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low.' [Another translation says:] 'pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection.'
Qur'an 5:17 '...Say (Muhammad): ‘Who then has the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary, his mother, and everyone else on earth?'
Qur'an 5:35 'Believers, fear Allah and seek the way to approach Him, striving hard, fighting Jihad with all your might in His Cause that you may be successful. As for the disbelievers [previously defined as Christians], if they had everything on earth, two times over, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Doom, it would never be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful torment. They will desire to get out of the fire, but they shall not be released from it. They shall have an everlasting torture.'
Qur'an 5:49 'And this (He commands): Judge between them by what Allah has revealed and follow not their [Christian] desires, but beware of them lest they beguile you, seducing you away from any of that which Allah hath sent down to you. And if they turn you away [from being Muslims], be assured that for their crime it is Allah's purpose to smite them. Truly most men are rebellious.'
Qur'an 5:73 'They are surely disbelievers who blaspheme and say: ‘God is one of three in the Trinity for there is no Ilah (God) except One, Allah. If they desist not from saying this (blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall them - the disbelievers will suffer a painful doom.'
Qur'an 5:77 'Say (Muhammad): ‘People of the Book, do not overstep the bounds in your religion, or follow the people who erred and led many astray. Cursed are the unbelievers among the Children of Israel by David and Jesus.... They do vile things, allying themselves with the infidels so that Allah's indignation is upon them and in torment they will suffer for all eternity.' [Another translation reads:] 'Curses were pronounced on the unbelievers, the Children of Israel who rejected Islam, by the tongues of David and of Jesus because they disobeyed and rebelled.'
Qur'an 5:80 'You see many of them allying themselves with the unbelieving infidels. Vile indeed are their souls. Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.'
Qur'an 5:82 'You will find the Jews and disbelievers [defined as Christians in 5:73] the most vehement in hatred for the Muslims.'
Qur'an 5:117 'I only said what You (Allah) commanded me to say: Worship Allah, my lord and your Lord. I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them but you took me up. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world.)'.
Now there's a little something about killing the unbeliever, huh? You delusional woman. Martha, any questions?
Well said Mirba. There is just no way around all that.
Thank you (above).
I urge visitors here to read this whole blog from start to finish: can there be any further dispute? To anyone reading this in the West: every time a mosque pops up in your neighborhood, this murderous cancer called Islam encroaches into your lives. If you permit this, it’s only a matter of time before there are suicide bombings on your street! Do you want Jihad in your headlines? Do you want your children to grow up paying a Jizya tax? You have to say no to Islam now! Hold your leaders accountable; call them & speak out against it’s terrorist dogma (you can quote it from here). It is so obviously NOT a religion of peace. Your future depends on it.
Hungarian Crusader strikes again,
Oh Martha, Miss Mighty Whitey, Defender and Loving Protector of the Islamic Devils.
There are 1.2 billion muzzie infidels and guess what?
They are ALL in the cause of islamic jihad.
This is the reality of the situation.
Muslims today do either 1 of 2 things.
1. They have groups that are actively recruiting, training, shooting, driving insurgent, or building bombs.
2. The next group are the more silent and sinister muslims.
They are the ones hiding weapons, smuggling drugs and terrorists, becoming politically active in local and national politics of their host nations.
As in the case of CAIR, they are constantly attempting to undermine US political efforts and threatening to sue govt employees and now the latest thing promising TO SUE any American citizens that report ANY SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITIES OF MUSLIMS AT US AIRPORTS!
Why would muslims want to do that I wonder....Martha please tell me I am aching for another smashing answer.
Do you want to tell me why those muslim friends of yours do not attack us here in America right now as you claim they are so peaceful?
Simple.
Most people in the entire world realize nearly every US household has several guns with ample supplies of ammunition and we are ready to use it in defense of our nation.
Does that sound familiar.
Muslims also know Americans are not cissified, politically correct, and lazy as Europeans who cower in their homes every time the muslims start burning down large suburban areas of the major, European cities.
Americans will come out and fight within a minutes notice as they tried to here in a suburb of Chicago in 2001 with nearly 4,000 people surronding a local mosque.
Reasons as this are why the muslim rats are acting within limits here in America, but the demographic threat muslims pose can be a long term threat.
That is another reason why I am in favor of muslims being sent back home to their ancestral lands where they can marry their cousins and live incestously to their hearts content.
Regarding the CIA website you small mind, I was suggesting you read it for the sake of showing how few Christians are in islamic nations as a percentage and they are shrinking more every year.
What else do I have to shred of your alleged arguments?
This topic is being overdone for my taste.
Shame on you, the more you speak, the more you show of your folly.
The only reason why that suburban mosque was not turned into a pile of hot ash is because I saw police from 4 different suburbs, backed up with units from the sheriffs dept, the forest preserve dept, and state troopers.
I think this happened in October, 2001 one evening when I was returning home from work and I gladly joined in the convoy of blaring cars, various biker groups on their Harleys, and masses of marching residents wishing to get their hands on agitating muslims.
I believe it kicked off because the story goes several muslims were seen tearing up a US flag and this news spread as fire through my neighborhood.
Well, I guess those muzzies know without a doubt now that Americans will not tolerate attacks on our cities and than have the ballitos to deface our flag.
No, Americans are definitely not like those Europeans.
Go check out www.unitedamericancommittee.com for all news regarding isalmic attempts to undermine our security and attempts to infiltrate our government.
They are based in the Los Angeles area and have held several nation wide events with effigy burnings of Osama and offers to US muslims to come out and declare a jihad and fatwa on him and his assistants.
Predictably, not 1 muslim in this large nation has come out and spoken out against islam or declared a fatwa on Osama.
www.unitedamericancommittee.com go check it out.
Can we all stop these ridiculous polemics and get back to the original point of this thread? An Italian hospital wants to appease its non-Catholic (=Muslim) mothers-to-be by abolishing the crucifix and replacing it with a statue of the Blessed Virgin. If they intended to do this voluntarily, I don't think anyone
would object, but they are being coerced into this action by the more militant of the Muslim patients. That is the point of this thread: neither of these religious artefacts would be permitted in a Muslim country, and in Arabia or Iran they would earn for their venerators a severe punishment. Without a quid pro quo, the action
of the hospital authorities should be stopped.
Re: Geoffrey
Point well taken. No arguments have changed anyones views or will.
I think it would be interesting to ask the majority of Italians how they feel. Also, where do you see coercision? My impression of the article was that it was voluntarily done, in an attempt to integrate different communities. Besides, is it really that terribly that the crucifix was replaced by Mary? I think as a patient, I would prefer a motherly figure watching over me to a man dying on a cross, much as any of our mothers watched over us and comforted us when we were sick.
Yes, Martha, I can well imagine that you personally would prefer to see a motherly figure rather than your crucified Saviour as you lay in a hospital bed. Since it is rather unlikely that I shall ever be a mother-to-be, I can speak only from the
perspective of a man who has spent a number of periods in hospital, once or twice
recovering from major operations. It is a fact, is it not, that any stay in a
hospital is caused by a condition which requires treatment that one is not able
to give to oneself. Such treatment always carries a risk of infection and possibly a life-threatening illness. That is the whole point of having a crucifix
in the ward or private room. It is not exactly unheard-of for a patient to die in
hospital, and such a person needs to be constantly reminded of the destiny that
awaits him in the event of his own death. That is why the hospital authorities are seriously at fault in this matter. They are depriving the MAJORITY of their patients of this essential need.
We must stand up for our beliefs and hold fast in the face of increasing pressure to conform to the world. We are not of this world but are only pilgrims on the way to Christ Jesus, our Lord, our Master, our Savior. We are to be salt! We are to be light! 'Do not be afraid!' The crucifix must stay up no matter what and no matter who objects! We are not our own but we are Christ's! We care only for what He desires of us and He is to be our only focus! 'Oh Mary conceived without sin, pray for ...the enemies of the Church!' Pray for them, lead them in the proper way, but do not yield to enemies of your faith, of the Church! Renew your Baptismal Promises! Pour forth the Holy Spirit given to you in Confirmation! Recite the Creed and mean every word! Remember who you are! You are Christ's! Is His immense suffering love for you to be wasted on you? Live your faith!
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OliviaMay 9th, 2007 - 12:34:06
The Virgin Mother will be the great peacemaker and bridge between the faiths of the world as the loving mother She is to all of us.
Her messages in the Our Lady of America apparitions in Rome City, IN speak precisely to this very point and how the children will lead the world to peace through the purity of their lives. You can read all of Her messages and learn about the many wonderful ways She is calling to us all at oltiv.org and ourladyofamerica.com. It is well worth the time to read through them.
God Bless you all this day!
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