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Karzai vows to take war on Taliban to Pakistani soil (Roundup)

Jun 15, 2008, 10:58 GMT

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This is the old tribal warJun 15th, 2008 - 12:15:12

Karzai's background is that of a Pashtun warlord, and this whole thing seems in part about old rivalries. Just as Afghanistan has always been separated into tribes, Iraq has been divided along religious/sectarian lines.

Here's some history dating back to 2002 insofar as to how Karzai got where he is - and years later, nothing substantial has been done to pacify Afghanistan, or to end Taliban influence. They cannot even give a straight count of the prison escapees.

Note particularly the final paragraph pasted below (morw in the source link)

www.greenleft.org.au/2002/498/28003

The much-hyped loya jirga or grand assembly was supposed to be post-Taliban Afghanistan's first step towards the creation of a representative democratic government. However, even before the delegates had begun to gather in Kabul for the meeting's scheduled start on June 10, it was obvious that the loya jirga would be neither democratic nor representative.

It did not take long for delegates to realise that the main purpose of the stage-managed extravaganza was to formalise and legitimise the cynical ruling coalition between Afghanistan's most powerful warlords and the US-backed central regime of Hamid Karzai all with Washington's blessing.

As far as the US rulers and the Karzai regime were concerned, the loya jirga would be a mere formality. The May 25 New York Times reported: Karzai is expected to win an easy victory and lead the new government, Afghan officials and Western diplomats said? He is being strongly backed by the former king, Mohammad Zahir Shah and he has solidified his ties with several powerful former leaders of the Northern Alliance [NA]. The king has kept his promise not to push for the restoration of the monarchy

Karzai's strength reflects the enormous influence of the country that is backing him the United States. From warlords on the country's fringes to ministers jockeying for position in Kabul, many leaders see American money and military clout as the ultimate source of power here.?

Warlords return
Washington has acquiesced in the return of the warlords on the proviso that they pledge allegiance to Karzai's interim administration and cooperate militarily with US forces.

Post-Taliban Afghanistan is divided into three major cantons. the west is dominated by the forces of Ismail Khan, a Farsi-speaking Tajik warlord with strong ties to Iran; the north is mainly controlled by General Abdul Rashid Dostum, the ethnic Uzbek leader of Junbish-i-Milli; and central Afghanistan, including the capital Kabul, is the turf of the mainly ethnic Tajik Jamiat-i-Islami commanders from the Panjshir Valley, the most prominent being defence minister Mohammad Fahim.

The Panjshiri faction, Washington's main military ally in the toppling of the Taliban regime, was given a central role in the interim administration that was cobbled together in Bonn six months ago, being given the key ministries of defence, the interior (which runs the police) and foreign affairs.

However, in Afghanistan's south and east, no single warlord is paramount. The Pashtun ethnic majority in these areas now politically marginalised because it was a base for the Taliban is hostile to the NA-dominated Karzai government and is increasingly wary of the US. Even though Karzai is a Pashtun, many southern and eastern Pashtun tribal leaders consider him an agent of the Panjshiris. Pashtun civilians continue to bear the brunt of US military massacres.

In the Pashtun majority areas there are continuing stand-offs between a number of weak governors appointed by Karzai and local contenders for power the best-known being Bacha (sometimes referred to as Padsha Zadran) Khan Zardran who have strong military forces and support from Pashtun tribal chiefs.

While the US maintains an opportunistic military relationship with Pacha Khan and other anti-Karzai Pashtun warlords, Washington clearly fears that they may politically challenge Karzai's tenuous claim to be the representative of the Pashtun people.

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Robert ChapmanJun 15th, 2008 - 16:35:28

Afghani President Karzai is off his rocker if he thinks anyone will be willing to offer support to his government if he invades Pakistan.

Instead of continually looking for new places to expand the war, why don't they concentrate on securing their own countries and winning it?

The successful attack by Taliban forces on a gov't prison in Kabul demonstrates that Karzai's problems are far greater than the tribal incursions from Pakistan.

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lanceJun 15th, 2008 - 17:16:43

If the U.S. had focused on Afghanistan, which is a legitimate target of a war on terror, then the world would be a much different place. Unfortunately, many in the U.S. mistook terrorism for islam. For example Rice and Bush, to mention a few. Now, the U.S. administration is involved in most/all of the M.E. islamic nations and is incredibly overextended and with no clear focus on anything. Never elect a president whose base is fundamental christian evangelicals, they think everyone else is going to hell and don't give a damn about denigrating people of other beliefs and destroying their culture because:

'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.' John 3:36

They are saving the unbelievers of jesus from the wrath of god.

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SP4:(Unbal)lance(ed)Jun 15th, 2008 - 17:33:13

If the U.S. had focused on Afghanistan, which is a legitimate target of a war on terror, then the world would be a much different place.

sp4 - We invaded Afghanistan, deposed the Taliban and allowed them to install a moe moderate regieme. Give credit where credit is due.

Unfortunately, many in the U.S. mistook terrorism for islam.

sp4 - perhaps, but one only has to look around to see the connection.

For example Rice and Bush, to mention a few.

sp4 - Again, go find me one single fundimentalist Islamic state that is NOT involved in enabling terror.

Now, the U.S. administration is involved in most/all of the M.E. islamic nations and is incredibly overextended and with no clear focus on anything.

sp4 - we are winning in Iraq, have secured most of Afghanistan

Never elect a president whose base is fundamental christian evangelicals, they think everyone else is going to hell and don't give a damn about denigrating people of other beliefs and destroying their culture because:

sp4: now who's the religous bigot?


'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.' John 3:36

sp4 - If you actually READ that passage, you will see it leaves any punishment to god, in the afterlife. That has nothing to do with GW Bush

They are saving the unbelievers of jesus from the wrath of god.

SP4: no, christians are supposed to leave punishment to God.

Lance - go inform yourself.



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guadalcanal diaryJun 15th, 2008 - 18:21:21

Hey SP4, we figured out Lances' real name is Muhammed, Ahmed or Khaleed. He's terrified of any Muslims being exposed to Christianity. Like most Muslims, he probably believes in the death sentence for anyone who turns away from following 'the pedofile'.

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lanceJun 15th, 2008 - 18:51:07

'sp4 - If you actually READ that passage, you will see it leaves any punishment to god, in the afterlife. That has nothing to do with GW Bush'

It states that those that do not believe and obey in jesus will have no [after]life, 'will not see life', that is the wrath of god.

What it means is this:

According to jesus and christians, muslim children shall never see their grandma and grandpa in the eternal afterlife. Jesus denies them hope. It also means that in order to have life, muslim children must sacrifice their own heritage and confess that their grandpa and grandma are nothing more than dirt, with no soul.

Does that not sound very alarmingly condescending and cruel? Why deny muslims hope and eternal bliss?

May everyone, no matter who they are, have eternal life and bliss; regardless of what they believe! I say: goodwill to both muslim and christian; and to muslims: You do not need to convert to be eternally treated with respect and kindness.

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Kabul KarzaiJun 15th, 2008 - 20:35:41

To invade Pakistan, he will first have to get out of fortress Kabul and dodge the bombers. His masters in DC must be pulling strings to put pressure on Pakistan. Just think for a moment he can't even keep prisoners inside prisons, how will he invade Pakistan?

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jokerJun 15th, 2008 - 20:42:05

Karzai is a joke- ha ha ha ha ha. One hour after U.S pullout, he'll be sucide bombed into 1000 pieces. Karzai is just another U.S puppet.

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shuddup lanceJun 15th, 2008 - 21:36:22

'They are saving the unbelievers of jesus from the wrath of god.'

This refers to the afterlife, in the unlikely event that there is one. Every day muslims murder the infidel in THIS life. These wars are not about converting muslims to Christianity. They are about protecting ourselves from islamist aggression.

Put simply, if muslims could learn to live with the rest of civilization without trying to subjugate it then there would be no troops in Afghanistan. Then again, according to the Koran, if muslims learned to live with the rest of civilization without trying to subjugate it they wouldn't be very good muslims.

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Just one more instance of PB being wrong.Jun 15th, 2008 - 21:46:51

'This is the old tribal war'

This is a war of civilization and humanity against barbarism and savagery. One that some idiots haven't decided who they want to support.

'www.greenleft.org.au'

Is not a legitimate source of information. It is a propaganda outlet, used by fundamentally immature, arrested adolescent, 'you're not the boss of me' types who just do not want to be bothered by such inconvenient facts like Afghanistan now has a democratic process that was not there before and that is due to the intervention of the USA. Indeed, a famine that would have killed tens of thousands has been averted and the talaban have been thrown out.

Of course you can't mentally allow for there being any improvement in anything if the USA is behind the effort. Such is your mental problem.

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alarmingly condescending and cruel? Read the KoranJun 15th, 2008 - 21:49:29

'Does that not sound very alarmingly condescending and cruel? Why deny muslims hope and eternal bliss?'

Want to read 'alarmingly condescending and cruel'?

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)

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lanceJun 15th, 2008 - 21:56:48

'Put simply, if muslims could learn to live with the rest of civilization without trying to subjugate it then there would be no troops in Afghanistan.'

That is strange. The U.S. has occupied Iraq and Afghanistan, while Iraq and Afghanistan have not occupied the U.S., nor even caused any harm to the U.S. Remember: No 9/11 hijacker was from Iraq or Afghanistan.

Who is subjugating whom?

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lanceJun 15th, 2008 - 22:32:08

'alarmingly condescending and cruel? Read the Koran'

Yes, the Koran is alarmingly condescending and cruel as well.

Peace be with you.

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SP4 on the loco weed againJun 15th, 2008 - 23:32:36

SP4 - We invaded Afghanistan, deposed the Taliban and allowed them to install a moe moderate regieme (sic). Give credit where credit is due.

===================

No credit given; because we did not 'hold' the ground ostensibly gained. Iraq was the exact same way until Petraeus figured out that we could pay off the Sunni in return for support.

The Taliban have the support of the Afghani people, while Karzai controls his capitol. If this is a 'win', remind me not to stick around for a 'loss'.

SP4 keeps making excuses for others' ineptitude; likely a family trait. We did not 'allow' anything - we rigged the whole thing so that Karzai would win.

-------------------------

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamid_Karzai

When the Taliban emerged in the 1990s, Karzai was at first one of their supporters but later he broke with them and refused to serve as their U.N. ambassador. However on August 20, 1998, after an attempt by the United States to kill Osama bin Laden with a cruise missile, Karzai praised the Taliban saying,

“ ...there were many wonderful people in the Taliban.'

He lived in exile in Quetta, in Pakistan where he worked to reinstate the Afghan king, Zahir Shah. His father, Abdul Ahad Karzai, was assassinated, presumably by Taliban agents, on July 14, 1999, and Karzai swore revenge against the Taliban by working to help overthrow them. In 2001, Hamid Karzai worked closely with the Ahmad Shah Massoud to help gather support for the anti-Taliban movement.

On February 11, 2005, in an interview with the Oxford International Review, Karzai criticizes the role the U.S. played in empowering the Taliban to take control in Afghanistan. He claims he spent many years before the 9/11 attacks warning embassies about the threat, but the West failed to respond, an act of “neglect, selfishness and short-sightedness.' While he highlights the key role the United States and other donors have played in rebuilding and developing Afghanistan, his tone is not without bitterness.

In December of 2001, political leaders gathered in Germany to agree on new leadership structures. Under the December 5 Bonn Agreement they formed an interim Transitional Administration and named Karzai Chairman of a 29-member governing committee. He was sworn-in as leader on December 22. The Loya Jirga of June 13, 2002, appointed Karzai Interim holder of the new position as President of the Afghan Transitional Administration.

In 2004 he rejected a US proposal to end poppy production in Afghanistan through aerial spraying of chemical herbicides, fearing that it would harm the economic situation of his countrymen. Moreover, Karzai's younger brother, Ahmed Wali Karzai, who partially helped finance Karzai's presidential campaign, is rumored to be involved in the drug trade (although Karzai's family were quite wealthy already from owning well established restaurants in the United States. The situation was particularly delicate since Karzai and his administration have not been equipped either financially or politically to influence reforms outside of the region around the capital city of Kabul. Other areas, particularly the more remote ones, are currently and have historically been under the influence of various local leaders. Karzai has been, to varying degrees of success, attempting to negotiate and form amicable alliances with them for the benefit of Afghanistan as a whole, instead of aggressively fighting them and risking an uprising.

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JoeBJun 16th, 2008 - 02:02:26

Lance:

'The U.S. has occupied Iraq and Afghanistan, while Iraq and Afghanistan have not occupied the U.S., nor even caused any harm to the U.S. Remember: No 9/11 hijacker was from Iraq or Afghanistan.'

You left out the important part, where Osama Bin Laden and his cronies planned 9/11, trained, and were protected from the world by the Taliban in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. They have indeed caused great harm to the US and the world. They are evil people pure and simple justifying what they do in the name of religion, much to the chagrin of fellow Muslims whom they have also harmed. Use your head or is your gutra too tight?



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the bible doesn't say is's OK to persecute muslimsJun 16th, 2008 - 02:19:17

'The U.S. has occupied Iraq and Afghanistan, while Iraq and Afghanistan have not occupied the U.S.'

We are in Afghanistan because they were harboring the islamists who flew aircraft full of people in to buildings full of people in my country. We are also fighting that same group of people in Iraq. The only way we could bar islamists from coming here to do their dirty deeds is to bar all muslims. Should we do that?

'Remember: No 9/11 hijacker was from Iraq or Afghanistan.'

They were members of an islamist terrorist organization called al Qaeda, which was based in Afghanistan and is in Iraq. When we fought the Nazis in WW2 it didn't matter whether or not they were from Germany, Austria, Holland, Denmark, France or Russia, etc... Which many of them were. We fought the ideology and killed them regardless of wherever they came from. That is the only way to have victory over these monsters, to track them down and kill them.

'Who is subjugating whom?'

There have been islamist attacks all over the world, would you like me to post the list?

'Yes, the Koran is alarmingly condescending and cruel as well.'

As well? Read the above quotes and find me the equivalent in the bible? Show me where the bible says it s OK to persecute muslims. SHOW ME.

'Yes, the Koran is alarmingly condescending and cruel'

Careful lance, you may cause a riot among some of the members of the religion of peace.

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tonny from belgiumJun 16th, 2008 - 09:59:46

Almost all religions are cruel,just read the bible and find out where islam got inspiration.Jews were allowed by their god (as fictious as ant other one) to invde land promised by their private god,kill all inhabitants incuding children,etc,etc.Stoning women was not invented by mulims,it is found in both OT and NT .As for the link between terorism and islam that is so often taken for granted,let us scrutinize Iran as it has been often the target of the Bush administration.Until now nothing credible has ever emaneted from the White House to tie the regime to terrorism.Unless we have to take the word of Bush as gospel ,which nobody does anyway.I call on anybody to provide credible evidence (not just allegation) to link Iran to terrorism,do your best .SP4,feel challenged?

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Poor SP4, deluded as everJun 17th, 2008 - 00:55:26

RE:

SP4:(Unbal)lance(ed)Jun 15th, 2008 - 17:33:13

If the U.S. had focused on Afghanistan, which is a legitimate target of a war on terror, then the world would be a much different place.

sp4 - We invaded Afghanistan, deposed the Taliban and allowed them to install a moe moderate regieme. Give credit where credit is due.

=======================================================

IDIOT!!!

==========

www.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/world/asia/17afghan.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref =slogin

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Hundreds of Taliban fighters have swarmed into a strategically important district just outside Kandahar, the biggest city in southern Afghanistan, apparently in a push for control just days after 400 Taliban members escaped in a spectacular breakout from the Kandahar prison, officials said Monday.

Afghan military reinforcements arrived in Kandahar on Monday and have already deployed in Kandahar Province, said a NATO spokesman, Mark Laity. The soldiers flew from Kabul and more can be expected to follow, he said. NATO forces based in Kandahar Province have also redeployed to be better prepared for any potential threat, he said.

A government spokesman, Parwez Najib, confirmed the news that Taliban fighters had infiltrated parts of the district, Arghandab. “There is not fighting yet,” he said. Afghan and foreign forces are aware of the presence of the Taliban, he added.

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