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In photos: 'Hillary Clinton suspends her campaign'
By M&C News Jun 7, 2008, 19:40 GMT
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Older Talkback
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The Photos are excellent. Thank you M&C for uploading them.
It really doesn't matter who win's the U.S election. All candidate's worship AIPAC's money and will inflict more wars in the M.E. and the M.E will race to arm themselves with nuclear weapons for defence/deterrent purposes. As long as Israel exists; there will never be peace on earth.
put the word out:
We don't scare easily.
Defense Policy: In the middle of a war on two fronts, Barack Obama plans to gut the military. He also wants to dismantle our nuclear arsenal. And he wants to keep you in the dark about it.
The Obamatons of the mainstream media have failed to report one of the most chilling campaign promises thus far uttered by the presumptive Democrat nominee for president.
He made it before the Iowa caucus to a left-wing pacifist group that seeks to reallocate defense dollars to welfare programs. The lobbying group, Caucus for Priorities, was so impressed by Obama's anti-military offering that it steered its 10,000 devotees his way.
In a 132-word videotaped pledge (still viewable on YouTube), Obama agreed to hollow out the U.S. military by slashing both conventional and nuclear weapons.[...]
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mnz1KF9ZjjE
You can bet that Obama will not make this sweeping indictment of our security forces again as he tries to move to the center in the general election. But this is what he thinks, and this is what he plans to do.
His campaign Web site doesn't list a separate category for military or defense under 'Issues.' But search shows near-identical language there regarding nuclear weapons.
While there is fat in the defense budget, defense spending both as a share of GDP and the total federal budget are still at historically low levels, despite the war.
And while cutting fat out of the defense budget is a worthy goal, Obama would cut beyond fat to bone.
Caucus for Priorities aims to redirect 15% of the Pentagon's discretionary budget away from 'obsolete Cold War weapons towards education, health care, job training, alternative energy development, world hunger and deficit-reduction.'
On the chopping block: the F-22 Raptor, the V-22 Osprey, the Virginia-class sub, the DDG-1,000 destroyer and the Army's Future Combat System.
Cutting allegedly 'unproven' missile defense systems is music to Kim Jong Il's and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's ears, let alone all the PLA generals wishing our destruction.
Yet Obama wants to kill a program that's yielding success after success, with both sea- and land-based systems. The military just this week intercepted a ballistic missile near Hawaii in a sea-based missile defense test.[...]
In contrast, John McCain has vowed: 'We must continue to deploy a safe and reliable nuclear deterrent, robust missile defenses and superior conventional forces that are capable of defending the United States and our allies.'
RE:'Who will stop him?'
A number of corporations for starters, but then there is also Bubba Jones and the Republicans. Do you really think that they will just sit around and let this bunch run over them? I don't.
RE:'He hasn’t been in the senate long enough to know anything. Look at his record, he has missed most of his votes. Just kike when he was a state senator.'
Perhaps I should have said that he has been in politics long enough to know better. He certainly understands what happens if he annoys the wrong people. By the way, if there any out there still thinking that his past will catch up with Senator Obama now, had best disabuse themselves. There isn't a DA in the country who would try to indict the newly elected nominee of the Democrat Party.
RE:'Yes, the legislative branch is supposed to be a check on the executive. The democrats will have both if Obama is elected. They will have a sizable majority in the legislative. Not having obama IS the only check and balance we will have for at least the next 4 years. '
You forget that the people of this country are and always have been the final check, which is what I pointed out in my previous post. How do you think Bubba Jones is going to react when his job disappears? You think we had a high misery index under President Carter? You ain't seen nothin' yet.
RE:'You can’t just unilaterally abrogate specific terms on something like NAFTA.'
True, but there are other trade treaties pending.
RE:'The Canadians have rightfully said that if we were not going to live up to our word (remember that funny joke? Our word? Does that mean anything any more? Not in the face of hope ‘n change) then the whole thing was open for re-negotiation. When it was negotiated it was at $11 a bbl, now it is at $130 and rising. Where do you think we get most of our oil? That is just an example. The clear point is that you have someone who is dangerously naive and who has complete disdain for American sovereignty who is going to be making these compromises.'
We buy about fifty-percent of our crude from the Canadians. Most of that comes from 'oil sands' and is only profitable for the Canucks because they happen to also have quite a bit of natural gas handy. The price of oil closed $139.54 on Friday. We may as well call it $140/bbl. I'm here to tell you, Bubba, that the only way the price of crude is going to go down in the currently climate is if Congress unbends and allows development of resources in US jurisdiction. By the way, the Chinese are now in a position to steal US oil thanks to Cuba. I KNOW they have been buying the equipment that would allow them to pull that off. John McCain continues to support this stupidity.
Back to our existing treaties. They are NOT being adequately enforced. Mostly because the US will be called big bad greedy assholes, but so what? We are already living with that label.
RE:'80+% of the crude oil used in the world today goes in and out of the Strait of Hormuz that connects the Gulf of Oman to the Arabian gulf. The Iranians have repeatedly threatened and tried to close it off. They have mined it.'
I know and I remember what happened the last time they did.
RE:'1) If we turn over Iraq too soon it will become stage for a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran. The sunnis and the shiites will be at each others throats over who gets control over the oil and it’s wealth. It doesn’t matter who wins, either side will set up a failed, terrorist friendly state in the geographic center of the middle east. Look up Mackinder's heartland theory and read about the concept of pivot points. Iraq is the hub of the middle east. If it is a successful democracy then stability will spread, if it is a failed terrorist state, then islamist terrorism will spread. It is that simple and that obvious.'
Yes, I agree. You and I have agreed on this in the past. No argument from me on this point. Invading Iraq made sound strategic sense. Whether or not there was a good moral case for it was and remains the issue. As I am sitting here writing this, C-Span is broadcasting testimony before Congress by Iraqi MP's. They are saying that we should withdraw our troops. They are proposing that we should withdraw on a timetable. They are also saying that the do NOT want us to have permanent bases in Iraq. They are also saying that the scheduled withdrawal should not last beyond two-to-three years. This is what they are telling Dana Rohrabacher. The Iraqis are insisting that there is no local threat with which they cannot deal with alone. We are about to be leaving Iraq whether we think it is a good idea or not.
The Iraqi position tells me three things.
1) They really do want us to leave. This should surprise no one. As much as we have in common with the British and as much as we genuinely love each other, we were sick and tire of each other by the time Germany fell.
2) They know that an immediate withdrawal of US troops would result in disaster.
3) They are, wisely in my opinion, doing their absolute best to get ahead of political developments in the United States. They can see what is coming.
There are no flies on Iraq's political leadership. If Barak Obama is elected there is great risk that we will simply withdraw at once, so they are agreeing with him in advance that US troops should be withdrawn, but then they ask that this be done on a schedule that allows them to take full control of their country. It seems very unlikely to me that even Barack Obama would refuse such a request from Iraqi leadership.
If Senator McCain wins the election, they fear that they will be pressured to accept a permanent US troop presence in Iraq. I happen to agree with Senator McCain on this point, we do NEED to maintain a permanent presence in Iraq, but the Iraqi's aren't having that. They also fear, quite reasonably, that there is a war brewing between the US and Iran. Were I an Iraqi I would say, 'We've had enough fighting, thank you very much. Please fight your war from some other direction.'
RE:'2) If our allies in the region see that we cravenly run from wars that we started there will be no incentive to help us do anything. If we are a country that can not be believed then you will see the gulf states stop cooperating with issues like terrorism and trade. Want to see the dollar take a bigger hit? Watch what happens when they start trading oil in other currencies.'
Do I want to see the dollar to take a bigger hit? No, but then I do not see how it can be avoided at this point. The dollar is done, stick a fork in it. As for the cooperation of our alleged allies, I think they are done with us. Their own politics are coming into play. After all, the lodestone of all politics in every country in the Middle East is the Koran, not Enlightenment Era Philosophy. Further, without the support of Russian and India, we will NEVER be able to do very much about Iran.
3) If Iran is allowed to acquire an atomic bomb they can make good their threat to close the Strait of Hormuz. They will too. They will also probably make good on their threat to wipe out Israel.
Yes, I agree. They certainly WILL close the Strait of Hormuz. They will not close it forever, but just long enough to separate us from what is left of our European and Asiatic allies. They are already paying dramatically higher prices for liquid fuels than we are. If we impose a blockade on the Iranians in an effort to bring them to heel, we will immediately broaden the war. Our remaining 'allies' will not support such a blockade and they certainly will not help us out in the ensuing war. If we are to tackle Iran without help, then we need to do a great deal of preparatory work prior to hostilities. We had best hurry that up because there are no flies on the Iranians (they are crazy, not stupid) and they will begin hostilities at time and place suitable to THEM.
The real answer to the Iranian problem is three-fold. First, we MUST tap our own resources as a stop-gap. Just the mere announcement that we intend to do would drop the price of oil dramatically. Second we MUST start working on substitutes for crude, RIGHT NOW. Third we must continue to enact increasingly strict fuel economy standards. We must find a means of staying on this course in the face of falling crude prices, because the price of crude WILL. This is not a problem that the free market can solve. Also, this approach will be of great use to us and everyone else once the Straits of Hormuz are closed--and they will be.
As for Israel, Ahmadinjad is ALREADY making good on his threat. He does NOT need nukes to do that job. The Israelis themselves are doing that job for him, helped along by AIPAC and the UN. No, I am not crazy. Take a good hard look at the stuff AIPAC has been championing and read the pages of Ha'aretz and the Jerusalem Post. The Israelis have come down with the same debilitating disease afflicting our own Democrats. Despite all the decrying of AIPAC by Arabs and anti-Semites, AIPAC and the UN are the two best allies they have. HAMAS and Hezbollah are shaping the battlefield ahead of the war as I sit here writing this. They have been doing that for a long time now. They have studied General Giap closely and they are doing a good job of emulating him. Hell, I'll quote the wily old Jungle Fox:
'We paid a high price [during the Ted offensive] but so did you [Americans]... not only in lives and materiel.... Do not forget the war was brought into the living rooms of the American people. ... The most important result of the Ted offensive was it made you de-escalate the bombing, and it brought you to the negotiation table. It was, therefore, a victory....
The war was fought on many fronts. At that time the most important one was American public opinion.'
More in my next post.
RE:'Not really. I do not support the cap and trade nonsense,'
Okay, so here's a little bright spot on a news site. That's good to see.
RE:'but he also supports allowing states to decide whether or not they can drill off shore.'
Oh, do give me a break! If he is doing this just to pander to his Democrat buddies, it's a very stupid thing to do. He is hard core on national security, how can he hide behind his 'federalism' on this? I think he has decided that the Democrats are right about this is what I think. He is for damned sure buying into the rest of their watermelon blues. How do we otherwise explain his backing the Democrats when it comes to drilling for oil in Alaska?
RE:'He supports nuclear power'
And he's going to get oodles and oodles of heartfelt support from the Democrats on that, now isn't he? He will NOT get any support for the development from the Democrats and he WILL go along with them to create bigger monster than the SEVEN TRILLION dollar monster that just recently danced around on the floor of the US Senate.
RE:'and he has PROMISED not to get caught up in an international agreement like Kyoto unless China, India and Brazil also get on board.'
So did the Democrats! Kyoto was DOA, remember? 95-0! Oh, and he uses his 'federalism' to hide his support for OTHER watermelon nonsense. Quoting OnTheIssues.Org:
==========
Q: Schwarzenegger has proposed that California be allowed to implement much tougher emission requirements than apply to the rest of the country. Do you side with the governor or with the Bush administration?
A: I have to agree with the governor. I'm a federalist. The states should decide to enormous degrees what happens within those states, including off their coasts. The people of California have decided they don't want oil drilling off their coasts. The people of Louisiana have decided that they do. I applaud the governor's efforts and that of other states in this region and other states to try to eliminate the greenhouse gas emissions that are causing climate change. Suppose that the governor and I are wrong, and there's no such thing as climate change. We adopt these green technologies, of which the US and the innovative skills we have and the entrepreneurship and the free market cap-and-trade proposal is enacted. Then all we've done is giving our kids a cleaner world.
==========
RE:'A reoccurring theme in your whines about McCain is that he doesn’t deliberately offend democrats just for the sake of offending them. Maybe he isn’t stupid…'
You cannot oppose Democrat Ooglia without offending them! Their political approach is to act like a spoiled child in front of the news cameras. Oh, then they call you names and they swear to God and any who will listen that you are greedy blackguard who wants to destroy everything. So, if you are going to oppose them, you must NECESSARILY offend them and put up with their childish behavior.
RE:'For the Zillionth time, your choice is between someone who is going to give you some of what you want, someone who will listen to what you have to say and someone who doesn’t give a rats ass about National Security.'
He is NOT going to give me some of what I want. He isn't going to have the wherewithal to give me what you and I want. He does NOT listen to me or a great many other Republicans. Whenever we try to talk about what we want he gets mad, swells up and blows shit at us. He has gone out of his way to piss us off and guess what! He succeeded!
RE:'I hope it’s your friends and loved ones this time then. '
I don't blame you one bit for saying this. The truth is, I hope it does not happen at all, but there are no guarantees and there will not be any guarantees, even with John McCain in the White House. The truth is, those people mean us harm and they intend to do us harm and they will not go away just because we put an ersatz Republican in the White House. And, they will be after us just as hard as they ever have been with Barack Obama in the White House. It won't make any difference. That risk will remain the same irregardless. I don't buy the notion that electing a Democrat will increase that particular risk. If anything, a Democrat would have a freer hand to respond to another atrocity than a Republican would. The Democrats would not oppose Barack Obama after such an event.
RE:'If 9/11 didn’t get peoples heads right, and it didn’t obviously, you are going to have to reconcile yourself that a large segment of the population is simply oblivious and will be until something unimaginably horrible happens. You seem to have joined them, indeed, they are just clueless; You are something worse.'
I think that the World Trade Center Atrocity got the vast majority our heads right. What fouled everything up was Donald Rumsfeld and his gross mismanagement of the War in Iraq. Congress, I remind you, President Bush's approval rating hovers around 31% while the approval rating of Congress has been as low as 14%. People have more faith in large corporations than they do our sitting Congress.
What amazes me is that the Republicans, NOT being led by John McCain, have capitulated. They have shown all the vigor and willingness to fight that you would find in a beached jellyfish. Have I made you good and mad? GOOD! Maybe I can make a few more Republicans mad. You are all a bunch of spineless boobs who do not deserve my vote!
RE:'When Jimmy carter was elected we weren’t in the middle of a 2 front war against an enemy committed to murdering as many civilians as possible.'
Whoa! Wait a cotton picking minute! We were up against the Soviet Union back then, Bubba! They had targeted every US city of any size with them great big county-killin' nukes! Talk about being committed to killing as many civilians as possible! The Soviets were dead serious!
RE:'We didn’t have a debt that was 60% of gdp. Indeed, the USA was at arguably the height of the dynastic cycle.'
Boy, you really did buy into that revisionist bullshit they teach kids in college, didn't you? After Richard Nixon? After we had Henry Kissinger running around telling us that we would have to settle for being a second rate power? Give it a rest! Richard Nixon wrecked this country and the wrecking had nothing to with Watergate. Watergate was just the cherry on the frikkin' rubble.
RE:'At this critical juncture we do not have the luxury of electing someone as incompetent or as morally cowardly as Carter or Obama. Obama is actually worse then Carter by leaps and bounds. He can talk his way out of anything. Carter just looked hapless. Obama will have the failures pinned on the usual suspects.'
Oh, its worse than you realize! Guess who is about to become one Obama's key advisors! I'll give you a hint. It ain't gonna be Newt Gingrinch!
RE:'They were like pigs at the trough. They have made an undeniable mess. There is simply no excuse for the waste over the past 7 years. One of the few that stood against it was McCain which is why they hate his guts. Poorly lead? Perhaps. But the precise truth is that THEY screwed up. Again, McCain was one of the only ones shouting about the disgusting waste of money that is only going to get exponentially worse under Obama. '
Oh, I ain't all that upset about them rooting around in the trough with the Democrats. We will never put an end to that kind of crap. The best we can hope for is to keep it down to a dull roar. As disgusting as that is, it is not the real harm they did to us. It was there sloth and their failure to enact the things they promised that sticks in my craw. I could forgive a hundred bridges to no-where had they taken care of business.
You are, of course, completely correct about what will happen under a Barack Obama administration when it comes to porking around. It is part of the Democrat's self-destruct mechanism.
RE:'The obvious issue is how you go about doing it. The Khmer Rouge fixed their crude oil energy requirements in a few weeks by blowing up anything that ran on internal combustion. In the mean time, what then? Price controls? Nationalize the oil companies? Rationing?'
1) Conservation first. We build vehicles that use less fuel.
2) We tap our OWN resources and use them wisely.
3) We get serious about developing sources for bio-diesel. Bio-diesel can be grown in the oceans. It need necessarily be grown in tanks ashore where they would take up invaluable crop land. I would encourage the oil companies to develop this kind of resource. Oh, an there are also the reserves of methane clathrates that remain untouched to date. There is also cellulosic methane. We have the technology to make that in hand right now and are doing nothing with it.
RE:'All he needs is enough to be able to stop a veto override for Iraq and Afghanistan. North Korea and Iran will have to simmer a bit more.'
I think the issue over Iraq is moot. We'll be there for at least another three years. Obama would not be able to say no to the Iraqi's requests. Afghanistan is a completely different bucket of worms. There we are relying entirely too much on our spineless allies and we need to put more boots of our own on the ground, or our allies who do have spines will throw up their hands in disgust and go home. Obama did NOT promise to leave Afghanistan and has in fact promised the exact opposite. He and the Democrats made a bad move by insisting on the ouster of Musharaff. The newly elected 'democrats' in Pakistan are capitulating to Taliban demands.
Neither the DPRK nor Iran ever simply 'simmer'. Either or both will strike at a time of their choosing.
RE:'Regardless, for the Zillionth time, you have a choice between someone who will confront/engage and someone who will capitulate/appease. (yet you know this)'
Yes, I do. I also know that he is of considerably less danger to us than Jimmy Carter ever was and is now. I think that a President Obama will never be anything more than a puppet operated by Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi. He will become Nancy's fall guy very shortly after his election.
RE:'Yet you are going to vote for the most rotten one.'
Voting for Harry Reid? Nah. I can't. He's from Nevada. I can't vote for Nancy Pelosi, either. They, by the way, are the two I would most like to see retired.
Re:'At this point the heavy lifting is done in Iraq and Afghanistan still has support. We simply cannot afford to lose either.'
The fate of Iraq is already cast with the Iraqi's making the throw. I agree, we can ill afford to lose Afghanistan.
RE:'At what cost? The death of the USA?'
Again, I think your estimate of American courage is entirely too low. I think you have bought into the news-puke's portrayal of us just a wee bit too much.
RE:'Look, I won’t be here, I live in the red part of the bulls eye but I do not appreciate the woman and children that I see every day being so “blithely“ sacrificed in your bazaaro-world scenario of allowing Americans to be murdered in order to properly “motivate” the survivors.'
Bubba, we lived with this very same risk from 1941 to 1991. The truth is, the very worst the Islamists can do is nothing compared to what the Soviets could have done and threatened to do--at least when it comes to using nukes against us. In some ways we are still fighting that war because at least half the battle was against leftist ideology. Nothing has changed. Remember Nancy Pelosi wearing that scarf over her head? She is just as much an enemy of this country and the ideas it was founded on as Nikita Kruschev was.
I find it far more worrisome that the Democrats aid and abet the infusion of Islam into our society, even going out of the way to encourage its instructions in our school systems in the name of multiculturism. They would not dream of allowing Christian children do what they ENCOURAGE Muslim children to do in our schools, yet you hear damned little about this from the news-pukes or the Goopers. Amadinejad is right about something here. The nukes are not nearly so important to this struggle as religion and ideas.
'Who will stop him?'
A number of corporations for starters'
Ok, to recap. you want to elect obama because you believe he will wreck the economy, lose us the wars and drive the USA in to the ground there by waking up the American public to the evils of socialism. Now you think that the cooperations can stop him? Firstly cooperations are not lawmakers, secondly they can pack up and move to the Bahamas and be done with the BS, thirdly What you are after is the destruction of our economy to make it 'pure capitalist'... Why would you want these 'corperations' to even slow him down?
'Do you really think that they will just sit around and let this bunch run over them?'
They will not have a choice.
'He certainly understands what happens if he annoys the wrong people. '
He is the messiah. He doesn't have to worry about annoying people. You just don't get it. (I wonder if you understand how dangerous this is? Hitler used the same shtick, I wonder if anyone voted for him because they thought he would be a cautionary tale for Germany.)
'. By the way, if there any out there still thinking that his past will catch up with Senator Obama now, had best disabuse themselves.'
His followers do not care if he has broken the law. You still do not seem to understand that this is not about rational examination of his record and qualifications for them. How could it be?
'You forget that the people of this country are and always have been the final check'
Again, you are not getting it. There are many who will elect/reelect him because he is not Bush or because he is black or because he says the things they want to hear. This is not about merits or qualifications. This is about his cult of personality. When he screws up the narrative will be because the neo-cons stopped him or because he wasn't allowed to go far enough or because of racism... Not because of his actions. When he fails it will be someone else's fault, the usual suspects. Look how he has handled all that has been thrown at him! Deny, stall, tell people they do not understand, question their motives for wanting an explanation and when left with no other choice, toss someone under the bus and proceed with business as usual. There haven't been any changes in core beliefs here and certainly not in the direction the campaign is taking. He is continuing on exactly as before and the people are eating it up.
'ow do you think Bubba Jones is going to react when his job disappears? '
Yeah, another great depression is what you are rooting for.. So much for your grand kids. After the last great depression Bubba Jones was rooting for communism. We got the new deal. the only thing that got us out of it was the build up for WW2. This is what you are hoping will save the USA? Breadlines? When I read what you have written I honestly cant comprehend how someone who is as articulate as you are has come to such an incredibly boneheaded conclusion.
'I'm here to tell you, Bubba, that the only way the price of crude is going to go down in the currently climate is if Congress unbends and allows development of resources in US jurisdiction.'
So, wouldn't it be easier and more patriotic to focus your attention on that then wishing for a catastrophe on my country? Oh, I forgot, that would mean work.
'John McCain continues to support this stupidity.'
No he does not. He supports allowing the states to drill. That is an opening. What you are insisting on is all or nothing and you are not going to get 'all'.
'They are NOT being adequately enforced. Mostly because the US will be called big bad greedy assholes,...'
And Obama will do that? Have you seen the atrocity that is the 'Global Poverty Act'? Of course you have, again, I keep forgetting, you want an economic collapse in the USA. If you haven't look it up: 'Global Poverty Act', it just ships billions of American money out of the country via the UN and turns over American sovereignty to people who despise us.
'I know and I remember what happened the last time they did.'
Well this time will be different! We will unconditionally negotiate!
'
Yes, I agree. You and I have agreed on this in the past'
And the oil price shocks will cause a world wide depression along the lines of the 1930s... People literally starving to death in developing countries. People hungry here. But I keep forgetting, that is what you want.
'Invading Iraq made sound strategic sense.'
I was against it, vocally, because I thought it would outlast our attention span. I am getting pretty goddamn sick of being right and ignored.
' As I am sitting here writing this, C-Span is broadcasting testimony before Congress by Iraqi MP's.'
I wonder what the German, Japanese, Philippine, etc 'mp's would have said. Actually no, I do not wonder or care. We have to do what is best for the USA first.
' We are about to be leaving Iraq whether we think it is a good idea or not.'
You got all of that from C-span.
'The Iraqi position tells me three things. '
You got all of that from C-span.
'Do I want to see the dollar to take a bigger hit? No, '
Well yes, yes you do. That will bring about this collapse you are after faster.
'The dollar is done, stick a fork in it. '
Give me yours then.
' As for the cooperation of our alleged allies, I think they are done with us.'
Better just roll over and take it, eh? You sound, are at your core, pretty cowardly I am afraid. There is still leverage that we have with the gulf states. Indeed we provide their security.
'Yes, I agree. They certainly WILL close the Strait of Hormuz.'
World wide depression. (what you are after)
'They will not close it forever,'
It doesn't matter. If free passage cannot be guaranteed without some kind of tribute then investors are not going to be putting their assets through the gulf. The price of oil will go through the roof. Look at our gdp and look at how much oil we consume. There is a direct correlation to the decimal point.
'but just long enough to separate us from what is left of our European and Asiatic allies.'
'We had best hurry that up'
And Obama will somehow do that...
'This is not a problem that the free market can solve. '
Not when government stands in the way as it is. Had we been able too drill wherever we needed to we would not be in this mess. Is that what people are going to be persuaded to believe? Don't bet on it.
'lso, this approach will be of great use to us and everyone else once the Straits of Hormuz are closed--and they will be.'
Our economy is interlocked with world wide economies. When they go down, we will go down.
'He does NOT need nukes to do that job.'
Whatever... I am an American. I have been to Israel and found it to be nice, I liked the people there. Whether or not they are at war with the 'palestinians' is irrelevant to the situation we are discussing. Feeding them to the mullahs is not going to buy one second of peace, it will only wet their appetite.
' AIPAC and the UN are the two best allies they have.'
So you talk about the power to shape public opinion yet you think that Obama and the democrats will somehow be held accountable, even in their first term? Can't you see how good he is? What a brilliant con artist he is? God, how you have underestimated the capacity for people to believe what they want to believe.
'The war was fought on many fronts. At that time the most important one was American public opinion.''
''I have to tell you, you know, it's part of reporting this case, this election, the feeling most people get when they hear Barack Obama's speech. My, I felt this thrill going up my leg. I mean, I don't have that too often.'' -Chris Matthews 'news reporter'
'More in my next post.'
Give me time to catch up.
Here, go read this and tell me if you are not doing the same EXACT thing that they have done. Tell me where a never ending cycle of working for the worst for the USA will lead to...
www.americanthinker.com/2008/06/the_audacity_of_the_democrats.html
we've had liberal presidents before. Outside of Carter, they all bought into containing communism.
Bush, in his bumpkin act, dis something that not even Barack the magic negro can beat: He set the terms for success.
No one who wants the job of President will be able to walk away from the Middle East. You can watch him twist and shout, but he's not going anywhere. He will have to project power to even stay in office. No president, from now on, will be able to retreat as Clinton did.
Nope, he's trapped. His advantage is that he has a constituancy that will ignore anything short of murder to keep him there and they'd probably greenlight that to get his ass in the White House.
'No one who wants the job of President will be able to walk away from the Middle East. '
Watch him. He is as serious as a tumor.
'His advantage is that he has a constituancy that will ignore anything short of murder to keep him there and they'd probably greenlight that to get his ass in the White House.'
And keep him there... Regardless of how far he drives us in into the ground.
Well noharness, my replies got deleted and I am not going to retype them. This has gotten very tedious.
Suffice to say you are acting like a big spoiled child who is throwing a temper tantrum because you are “pissed off”. Oh well.
I would be very happy if you would take your traitorous ass out of the USA and use some other country as your toilet if you can’t get everything that you want. You are no better in your ideas then the very worst of what you proclaim to want destroyed. Indeed, you will be voting for them.
Thanks for helping to make a mess that someone better then yourself is going to have to come along and clean up.
RE:'Here, go read this and tell me if you are not doing the same EXACT thing that they have done. Tell me where a never ending cycle of working for the worst for the USA will lead to...'
Quoting the article:'The opening event setting the stage for Obama's ascension was the contentious 2000 election. When Bush was declared its winner, Democrats fumed that the election had been stolen by the Republicans.'
I argued (with local Republicans) that the wisest thing the Bush Campaign could do was to back off and let Al Gore have it. I thought then, and still think now, that it would have been far better for the GOP to be in a position to complain about how Al Gore had stolen the election. Their reaction to what I said was not too terribly different from stuff I have been taking from you. I knew before I opened my mouth on the subject that I would be espousing 'heresy' and took it all in stride. They were, after all, already aware that I was neither a fan nor a supporter of George Bush. Was I right? I'll let you be the judge.
Again quoting the article:'Though the Democrats and their media shills are responsible for creating that illusion, Bush and the Republicans are to blame for generally ignoring or responding weakly to the Left's relentless assault on America's war-time morale. Instead of using the power of the White House pulpit to broadcast a steady, convincing message on the importance of presenting a unified national front in the face of totalitarian Islam, America is instead often treated to incongruous platitudes like, 'Islam is a religion of peace.' Instead of a forceful, direct calling-out of the Democratic Party, the State Department and CIA on their numerous subversions of Bush policies, those subversions are usually referred to by the White House as 'disagreements.'
It is never a good idea to allow your enemy to run around unopposed in your rear areas. It is an especially bad idea to praise your enemy. Islam is only a religion of peace when it is the dominate religion and all of its dissenters are dead or subjugated as a second class citizen. Women living under Islam are third class citizens.
Quoting the article one last time:'Ideological descendants of Marx and Rousseau now lead the Democratic Party and they have turned it into a disloyal opposition to an increasingly accommodating GOP.'
The accommodation of these sick little leftists MUST STOP. If the only means available to me is to try and make them self-destruct, so be it, but no more being nice and gentlemanly to the bastards because they do NOT deserve that kind of treatment. You do realize that there is one sorry little worm, regularly seen on CNN, that hangs around here, do you not? He refers to people like you and me as 'Right wing thugs.' He stated, on television in real time, that he was willing to do anything to take right wing thugs like you and me down. How about it, Bubba? Are you a right handed wing nut ready to go around breaking windows at night?
So who is doing the most damage, Bubba? Me because I think it a worthwhile risk to try and jar the American public out of its stupor, or John McCain, who would just as soon let them go right on sleeping? The John McCain who has made no effort to rally his party or to improve its morale? Whatever happened to the CO's who would take care of their outfits and where have all the good noncoms gone? It doesn't look to me as though the GOP has either one at the moment. Show me a GOP that isn't lying around like dead jellyfish on a hot beach and I might change my tactics.
Yes, this has been tedious. It's part of that doing-more-than-pulling thing. To help relieve that tedium, I'll just hit the highlights.
First, I will reiterate for what must be the tenth or twelfth time that my goal is NOT the total collapse of the US economy. Nor is it my intention to destroy the United States. You keep mis-charactering my clearly stated intent. All's fair in public debate, I suppose. I will again point out that do not expect us to arrive at 'pure Capitalism', that is just the target. Capitalism is an ideal, not an actual existent. Right now, this country is not even remotely capitalistic. We are living with a mixture of Mercantilism and Socialism. Capitalism has nothing to do with the way we live now-a-days.
I do believe that the Democrats will self-destruct, simply because I cannot see how they can avoid it. They have already overplayed their hand with S3036 and they are not even in full power yet. Let's take a hard look at what will happen after Obama is elected. I know, the best I can offer is reasonable speculation. That is all anyone can do and it is what we ALL do when we think about whether or not we want to vote for a particular candidate.
I think that the first thing that will happen is that Senator Clinton will run amok again on health care. She and Obama are going to clash. The news media, being what it is, will cover that in detail. Do you know what is really strange about the differences between them on health care? Obama's plan is far less expensive and far less coercive than Hillary's. That's right. As bad as Obama' plan is, it is no where nearly as bad as what Hillary would impose upon us. This debate will be acrimonious, prolonged and bewildering. The American public will NOT be impressed. If the Democrats ever do manage to get this load of do-do down signed into law, the general public is going to be even less pleased with it than they have been with the HMO's. Imagine this, Hillary wants to fine you for not participating in her system. How well do you suppose this is going to go down in Texas? Or Oklahoma? Hell, I doubt if it will sit well in Arkansas.
The environment. Barbara Boxer will run amok. This will frighten the bejeebers out of her fellow Democrats because they will see right away that she will be dragging them over the cliff. The Democrats are too stupid to EVER allow the drilling inside US jurisdiction, so the price of oil will go from $140/bbl to something over $200/bbl. Have you thought about what kind fight will break out between Democrats on this issue? It's gonna be truly nasty. You know what? I think that they will be stupid enough to actually turn some of this idiocy into legislation. Bubba Jones and the Soccer Mom's are gonna be real pleased with $8-$10 gas, now ain't they?
Nancy Pelosi hates diesel. She will do everything she can think of to outlaw it everywhere possible. She likes ethanol, which makes me wonder about her sobriety. These two together are a deadly combination. The price of groceries will likely double, perhaps triple. BuBba Jones is going to be real pleased with Barack Obama over this one, isn't he?
Oh, and the truckers are going to be monumentally pleased with the price of diesel rising past $15/gallon. Yeah, this is going to be fun to watch. You think you have bad traffic where you live, folks? Wait till the truckers start shutting down your freeways. Those boys can make your life far more miserable than the bikers in San Francisco can, believe me.
Oh, and you can bet that Maxine Waters is going to demand that the oil companies be nationalized. I have no doubt that Congress will hold hearings over it and will be dragging Oil Company execs in for interviews and investigations, not to mention all the federal auditors who will start mowing oil company carpets. We might not have any operational refineries after six months of that nonsense.
New construction? Fagedda-about-it! Not gonna happen!
Housing? Oh, there's a special treat in store for housing. By the time this bunch is through with housing, Ben Bernanke will find himself stuffing the banks with twice as much digital do-do as he did this last time. End result? Stagflation, just like we had under Jimmy Carter--double digit stagflation.
Before two years of Obama's term is up we will have gas lines six blocks long, women having crying fits at grocery store registers, and riots around Hillary's brand new and wholly uncooperative clinics.
Whose name will be mud? Why, Barack Obama's! The sitting president always gets the blame. Who will win the midterms by a record breaking landslide? I'll give you a hint, it will NOT be the Democrats. The damage they will do to the country will reparable. The damage the Democrats will do to themselves will be next to fatal.
You think that Barack Obama is this unstoppable mesmerizing machine and I'll have to admit, that so long as his handlers can keep in a situation wherein he is fully scripted and he has rehearsed his spiel, he is very compelling. But his handlers are not going to be able to keep him in those kinds of protected circumstances at all times. Obama has a very thing skin and he's vindictive. He has a temper that is markedly quicker than John McCain's. Whenever he is caught in a situation that is not planned out in advance he reverts to type. He 'lawyers up', taking long pauses before answering questions. When is rattled he is subject to making irrational and self-contradictory statements. He has lost his temper and told the press off, even though they have been very easy on him.
This guy is not a killer mesmerizing machine. He ain't gonna be able to pull Bubba and Mary Lou Jone's strings for very long. They are going to start seeing through him shortly after he takes office, this assumes that they do not see through him before then and elect John McCain.
'Quoting the article:''
That is not an answer to the question. Harry Reid et al have have hoped and worked for defeat and disaster for the country in he hope of pinning it on Bush. You want to start the cycle a-new by hoping and working for disaster by working for disaster to pin it on the democrats.
Where does that leave the country when half of it is always working to bring about the worst so it can blame the other half?
Answer that.
'I argued (with local Republicans) that the wisest thing the Bush Campaign could do was to back off and let Al Gore have it. I thought then, and still think now, that it would have been far better for the GOP to be in a position to complain about how Al Gore had stolen the election.'
Gee, I guess you haven't run in to an election that you haven't thought the republicans wouldn't be better off losing in a while. When would it be better to win? Are you after Karl Roves old job? Maybe Patton should have surrendered to the Germans so we could get to victory faster...
'I knew before I opened my mouth on the subject that I would be espousing 'heresy' and took it all in stride'
Not 'heresy', a bad idea.
'Was I right? I'll let you be the judge.'
If you were a supporter of Al gore, then yes, you were right. Pretending to be for 'conservative' values and voting Trotskyite is either disingenuous, insane or stupid. Voting for someone because you think he will wreck the country is traitorous.
'It is never a good idea to allow your enemy to run around unopposed in your rear areas.'
If obama wins then you will technically be the enemy of the USA. Wishing for collapse. Should we lock you up?'
'The accommodation of these sick little leftists MUST STOP.'
Well it won't as long as people vote for them.
'If the only means available to me is to try and make them self-destruct'
Even if it means wrecking the country? Why don't you get off your ass and fight the honest fight? Oh yeah, that would mean getting off your ass.
'You do realize that there is one sorry little worm, regularly seen on CNN, that hangs around here, do you not? '
No.
'He refers to people like you and me'
I am not like you, I want the best for the USA and am not going to try to drag it down under any circumstances. I can also read, and have come to the conclusion that McCain is a good man and will make a fine president.
'He stated, on television in real time, that he was willing to do anything to take right wing thugs like you and me down.'
Who is this that speaks to you through the internet and tv there Noharness?
' Are you a right handed wing nut ready to go around breaking windows at night?'
No. (What the hell good would that do?) I am a well armed crack shot who is going to keep all his damed windows.
'So who is doing the most damage, Bubba? Me because I think it a worthwhile risk to try and jar the American public out of its stupor, or John McCain, who would just as soon let them go right on sleeping? '
YOU. Because you actively wish for the worst to befall the country so you can indulge in some pipe dream about what will happen after the collapse. It is crazy. Additionally, you have completely mischaracterized McCain on just about every issue and you will not allow yourself to be persuaded that you are wrong.
In Effect and temperament you are absolutely no different from Harry Reid, you want to see failure and collapse to get your own way. It is destructive to the country and personally dishonorable, not to mention traitorous.
' The John McCain who has made no effort to rally his party or to improve its morale? '
The campaign has clear problems. Too bad we don't have legions of glassy eyed, drool chinned lemmings throwing their dollar bills at him.
' Show me a GOP that isn't lying around like dead jellyfish on a hot beach and I might change my tactics.'
I would say the dead jellyfish party is right where you belong, since you see so much that is wrong yet all you do do is whine about it. Organize, make phone calls write letters and checks. Draw a line in the sand... That makes a whole lot more sense then voting for someone because you think, correctly, that he will make a mess out of the country.
“First, I will reiterate for what must be the tenth or twelfth time that my goal is NOT the total collapse of the US economy.”
Why not, that would be wonderful to pin on the democrats. Boy oh boy, we would be a 1 party state then wouldn’t we? Those always work out great!
“. Nor is it my intention to destroy the United States.”
Just to deliberately lose us 2 wars against a committed advisory who will see that as a recruiting dream come true. Just to deliberately lose allies that we need and to see other allies wiped off the map,
“You keep mis-charactering my clearly stated intent.”
Your stated intent is to do as much damage to the country as possible and to pin it on the left. Just as it has been the lefts intent to do as much damage to the country and to pin it on the right. Us poor slobs in the middle have to carry you IDIOTS on our backs like tics on a dog whole you do your best to kick the legs out from under us.
“. Right now, this country is not even remotely capitalistic.”
I disagree and would state that “pure capitalism” is not a good target. More capitalistic perhaps, but then again, I m talking to an Obama supporter.
“I do believe that the Democrats will self-destruct, simply because I cannot see how they can avoid it.’
I do to. I also believe they will make a horrific mess and I do not think that producing this horrific mess will get you to your state of “pure capitalism”. After the last horrific mess produced by government intervention, the great depression, we almost went with communism. Fascism is also another alternative.
Your business plan is:
Make a big mess + something happens = Pure capitalism.
“I know, the best I can offer is reasonable speculation.”
It is not reasonable. It is crazy.
“The news media, being what it is, will cover that in detail.”
The mews media is simply devoted to them and the whole idea of international socialism. Even Rupert Murdoch is betting on Obama.
“Yeah, this is going to be fun to watch. You think you have bad traffic where you live, folks? Wait till the truckers start shutting down your freeways”
I don’t think it will be “fun”, I think it will be tragic. I noticed you didn’t mention the cost of losing Iraq and Afghanistan in your little bazaro world scenario.. Will it be “fun” to lose a city?
“Before two years of Obama's term is up we will have gas lines six blocks long, women having crying fits at grocery store registers, and riots around Hillary's brand new and wholly uncooperative clinics.”
I think it won’t happen until the second term but that is what you are counting on and that is why you are voting for Obama.
“Whose name will be mud? Why, Barack Obama's!”
And the United States of America.
“You think that Barack Obama is this unstoppable mesmerizing machine and I'll have to admit, that so long as his handlers can keep in a situation wherein he is fully scripted and he has rehearsed his spiel, he is very compelling. But his handlers are not going to be able to keep him in those kinds of protected circumstances at all times. Obama has a very thing skin and he's vindictive. He has a temper that is markedly quicker than John McCain's. Whenever he is caught in a situation that is not planned out in advance he reverts to type. He 'lawyers up', taking long pauses before answering questions. When is rattled he is subject to making irrational and self-contradictory statements. He has lost his temper and told the press off, even though they have been very easy on him.
“
And you want this in office.
“
This guy is not a killer mesmerizing machine.
The press adores him and people see what they want to see. You are included in that by the way.
“e ain't gonna be able to pull Bubba and Mary Lou Jone's strings for very long.’
Bubba and Mary lou have been replaced or shouted down as racists.
“this assumes that they do not see through him before then and elect John McCain.”
Thanks for all your help.
I think Obama is the best candidate in this presindentiel election compaire to MaCain,in terms of international affairs and other major problem in national policies, such as health care, job opportunities for Americans, and social secuirity as well.
MaCain going to continue with the same policy as W.Bush did it, don't let a big nation as America to continue with the same policy of Bush which has been felt in IRAQ for an other 4 more years. MaCain the forma war prisonner in Vietnam is not a capable person to run this big and powerful nation for another four more years.
RE:'That is not an answer to the question. Harry Reid et al have have hoped and worked for defeat and disaster for the country in he hope of pinning it on Bush. You want to start the cycle a-new by hoping and working for disaster by working for disaster to pin it on the democrats.'
Did you read this before you posted it? Yes, I want Harry Reid and the Democrats to take the blame for their perfidy. Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't anyone of good sense want him to own up to the evil he has done? And, by the way, a lot of this must be laid at the feet of George Bush as well. He has always enjoyed going along to get along with the Democrats. Look at where he, AND WE, are now! Ain't it great?
Re:'Where does that leave the country when half of it is always working to bring about the worst so it can blame the other half?'
In a freaking mess, just like it is right now.
Answer that.
RE:'Gee, I guess you haven't run in to an election that you haven't thought the republicans wouldn't be better off losing in a while. When would it be better to win? Are you after Karl Roves old job? Maybe Patton should have surrendered to the Germans so we could get to victory faster... '
I worked my ass off for George Bush's daddy.
RE:'If you were a supporter of Al gore, then yes, you were right. Pretending to be for 'conservative' values and voting Trotskyite is either disingenuous, insane or stupid.'
You, like most people involved in politics, are all tactics and no strategy. Of course I was not for Albert Gore, but I was not about to support someone inclined to go along to get along with Albert Gore's buddies. Look at that has gotten us, Bubba.
Re:'Voting for someone because you think he will wreck the country is traitorous. '
I did not vote for Albert Gore. I did go vote, but that was so that I could vote for the Republicans running for the Congress and Senate.
RE:'If obama wins then you will technically be the enemy of the USA. Wishing for collapse. Should we lock you up?'
Churchill did not warn Coventry, did he? You are wont to claim that I am enjoying this. The answer is no, I am no the least bit enthused about it. On the other hand, the alternative is far worse.
RE:'Well it won't as long as people vote for them.'
Well hallelujah! You are finally starting to see the bigger picture.
RE:'Even if it means wrecking the country? Why don't you get off your ass and fight the honest fight? Oh yeah, that would mean getting off your ass.'
So the time I spend here arguing politics with you and others counts for nothing, right? I'm impressed with that argument. Other than what I post here, what do you know about what I do, hmm?
RE:'I am not like you, I want the best for the USA and am not going to try to drag it down under any circumstances. I can also read, and have come to the conclusion that McCain is a good man and will make a fine president.'
Okay, great. Other than attacking me through all of this, what have you done to actively support John McCain? You think it stops with just sending contributions? Have you been out on the phone banks? Have you been out hanging signs or stuffing envelopes? Why haven't you tried to tell everybody why you think John McCain will be so infinitely superior to Barack Obama? What do YOU think will happen during putative McCain Administration?
RE:'No. (What the hell good would that do?) I am a well armed crack shot who is going to keep all his damed windows.'
Good! You really are my kind of guy.
Re:'YOU. Because you actively wish for the worst to befall the country so you can indulge in some pipe dream about what will happen after the collapse. It is crazy. Additionally, you have completely mischaracterized McCain on just about every issue and you will not allow yourself to be persuaded that you are wrong.'
Beyond mere assertions, you have done nothing to show me where I am wrong.
RE:'In Effect and temperament you are absolutely no different from Harry Reid, you want to see failure and collapse to get your own way. It is destructive to the country and personally dishonorable, not to mention traitorous.'
Show me a way to avoid this catastrophe, Bubba. Tell me how you think John McCain can steer us clear of it. Just saying he will won't make it. Just saying that he is a good man won't cut it. I figure that John McCain is about as good a man as you can expect to find in today's politics. Whoopee-do! It's time to make your pitch, Bubba.
RE:'The campaign has clear problems. Too bad we don't have legions of glassy eyed, drool chinned lemmings throwing their dollar bills at him.'
Enthusiasm matters and you know it! You haven't been out of the military for long enough to have forgotten that. Yes, the campaign has clear problems. It is isolated from the rest of the party and Senator McCain does little to appeal the GOP rank and file. Why?
RE:'I would say the dead jellyfish party is right where you belong, since you see so much that is wrong yet all you do do is whine about it. Organize, make phone calls write letters and checks. Draw a line in the sand... That makes a whole lot more sense then voting for someone because you think, correctly, that he will make a mess out of the country.'
Slapping me around will NOT get your guy elected. Why is the GOP acting like a bunch of puppies with a bad case of kennel cough? What's the matter with 'em? It looks to me as though they have surrendered already--Well, there IS Dana Rohrabacher, but that's about it. The rest of them are a bunch pale little ghosts begging Wolf Blitzer for handouts.
Would you like to know why are not already rid of the Democrats? Wasn't it you that said that what they want to do is oppressive and contrary to human nature? That being true, why is it that they are still around? They are still around because they have two qualities that overwhelm everything the Republicans throw at them. First, they are consistent. In politics, the side that is the most consistent wins. Take a good listen at Obama's speeches. The Democrats message has been consistently Marxist since FDR. They have not changed it one iota. The other quality is that they are persistent. They never go away.
What do the Republicans do? They accommodate the Democrats. They accept Democrat premises and try to lessen the impact of the government acting on them. It is an abominably stupid strategy. Christopher Chantrill writing for the American Thinker asks a good question, Are Conservatives Dead or Resting?
Here's a little snippet from the article he wrote: 'If you look back over the last 30 years, back over the record of conservative reform, there is one thing that stands out. Conservative reform never had a chance unless there was a crisis. The Reaganomics of hard money and low tax rates only got done in the crisis of Carter inflation/recession. The Bush tax cuts only got passed in the tech meltdown. Welfare reform only got passed when Newt Gingrich put a gun to President Clinton's reelection prospects in 1996.'
You want to know what well and truly pisses me off? Newt Gingrich is wallowing around with the Democrats. Go figure.
RE:'Why not, that would be wonderful to pin on the democrats. Boy oh boy, we would be a 1 party state then wouldn’t we? Those always work out great!'
There would be no need to pin anything on the Democrats if Barak Obama was president, now would there? They would be doing it to themselves, wouldn't they? Right in front of their news-puke buddies. Would we end up with one party rule? I seriously doubt it. If on the other hand, John McCain were President, guess who would get pinned with the blame, wouldn't he?
RE:'Just to deliberately lose us 2 wars against a committed advisory who will see that as a recruiting dream come true. Just to deliberately lose allies that we need and to see other allies wiped off the map,'
What allies? The Dutch, the Danes and the Australians? The Brits? You know what is really strange about the Brits? British Conservatives have a greater dislike for us than the Labor Party. Guess who is on his way out--Gordon Brown. The Pakistanis are NOT our allies. We are not going to lose the war.
RE:'Your stated intent is to do as much damage to the country as possible and to pin it on the left.'
NO! I am NOT going to do any damage to this country. The Democrats are. They will damage this country whether John McCain is president or not. He is not inclined to hold the line against the Democrats. His campaign is doing nothing to motivate his rank and file. He is NOT going to have any coattails. The Democrats are going to have full control of both houses of the legislature. Show me how John McCain will ever be anything more than a fall guy for the Democrats.
RE:'Just as it has been the lefts intent to do as much damage to the country and to pin it on the right. Us poor slobs in the middle have to carry you IDIOTS on our backs like tics on a dog while you do your best to kick the legs out from under us.'
Oh, geez how could I have been so slow! You're a Dobbsian Middleman. I should have realized. You know, in some ways you and Lou Dobbs have a point. There was a time when Goopers and Democrats would come together, especially during times of major crisis, but we haven't had that this time, despite George Bush's going along to get along with the Democrats. Oh, and by being in the middle, you just get in the way. Fish or cut bait, Bubba.
“. Right now, this country is not even remotely capitalistic.”
RE:'I disagree and would state that “pure capitalism” is not a good target.'
Clearly you haven't done much reading on the subject. You have bought into the Marxist nonsense about 'dog-eat-dog'. You don't get that under Capitalism. You do get it under Mercantilism. What we have is Mercantilism mixed with Marxism. What is even more alarming, is that we are about to get the worst of both.
Re:'More capitalistic perhaps, but then again, I m talking to an Obama supporter. '
No, I am not an Obama supporter, even though I a WILL vote for him.
Re:'I do to. I also believe they will make a horrific mess and I do not think that producing this horrific mess will get you to your state of “pure capitalism”. '
Do you read ANYTHING I post here or is it that I am using words that are too big for you?
'After the last horrific mess produced by government intervention, the great depression, we almost went with communism. Fascism is also another alternative.'
Fascism is exactly what we already have--at least the first stages of it.
RE:'Your business plan is:
RE:'Make a big mess + something happens = Pure capitalism.'
Nope. Either you are not reading what I am posting or you are bending things to suit your argument. Slow down a minute and look at the following carefully.
Big Mess by Democrats = Democrat Defeat.
RE:'It is not reasonable. It is crazy. '
So you think the Democrats can do what the plan to do, making a huge mess, and that the American people will just go along with them like bunch of sheep. Well, if Americans really nothing better than sheeple, why would you bother to defend them? Why should we make any attempt to save the herd?
RE:'The mews media is simply devoted to them and the whole idea of international socialism. Even Rupert Murdoch is betting on Obama.'
Yeah, and guess what is going to happen to their ad revenue. Can you say, 'fall like a rock'? It already is, by the way.
RE:'I don’t think it will be “fun”, I think it will be tragic.'
I'll bet you don't like watching America's Funniest Home Videos, either. I think they're a hoot.
RE:'I noticed you didn’t mention the cost of losing Iraq and Afghanistan in your little bazaro world scenario.. Will it be “fun” to lose a city? '
No, it would not be fun to lose a city, but then I think that if we were going to lose a city we would have already lost one. We are already losing the entire nation to the socialists because so many people want to be nice, reasonable and in the middle. You harp on defending the country and I do not doubt that you have and would do so again, but all you have been defending the country from is external threats. From me and mine to you and yours, please accept our deepest gratitude for doing that. What you and I disagree on is the level of danger presented by the likes of Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi. Compromising with them and their Democrat colleagues is dangerous.
RE:'I think it won’t happen until the second term but that is what you are counting on and that is why you are voting for Obama.'
I have no reason to believe that the Democrats will waste that much time. They are already hammering out their legislation as I sit here writing this. I think they will be, forgive me, 'Ready on Arrival'.
RE:'And the United States of America.'
Oh, come on, Bubba. Wake up and get a whiff of the newsprint. Our name is ALREADY mud. The newspukes have seen to that.
RE:'And you want this in office.'
I want an end to his political career. If it is necessary to elect him to effect that end, then so be it. I happen to believe that when he goes down that he will take the careers of a great many other Democrats with him.
RE:'The press adores him and people see what they want to see. You are included in that by the way.'
Bwahahaha! Nice shot. I suspect that Senator Obama would be more than a little peeved to know what I see in him. You see an unstoppable monster. To me he's just another Democrat.
RE:'Bubba and Mary lou have been replaced or shouted down as racists.'
Replaced? Have you told Bubban and Mary Lou about this? They cannot be shouted down when they walk into that voting booth and pull the lever for a straight Republican ticket.
Re:'Thanks for all your help.'
You're quite welcome, Bubba. I DO try.
'Yes, I want Harry Reid and the Democrats to take the blame for their perfidy.'
By giving them more power... makes perfect sense.
'and, by the way, a lot of this must be laid at the feet of George Bush as well.'
For not vetoing the waste from the REPUBLICAN congress?
'He has always enjoyed going along to get along with the Democrats. Look at where he, AND WE, are now! Ain't it great?'
LOL... 'k...
'In a freaking mess, just like it is right now. '
Yes, you want Obama because he will make a mess. Great.
'You, like most people involved in politics, are all tactics and no strategy.'
I think your 'strategy' is self-destructive. It is poisonous to the country. It will continue the cycle of trashing the USA in an effort to blame the other guy and it won't end until there is nothing left.
'Of course I was not for Albert Gore, but I was not about to support someone inclined to go along to get along with Albert Gore's buddies. '
So your brilliant idea was to put the guy in office that you didn't want because the other guy might compromise with the guy that you are putting in office. Right...got it. 'Strategy'..
'Churchill did not warn Coventry, did he?'
Because he didn't want the Germans knowing they were reading their codes. It is hardly the same as voting for Neville Chamberlain because you know that he is going to get the UK invaded.
'You are wont to claim that I am enjoying this. The answer is no, I am no the least bit enthused about it.'
Gee:
'Yeah, this is going to be fun to watch.'
Kind of sounds like you would be enjoying the mess that he will make. 'Riots' because Harry Reid will get blamed...
Here is an idea? Why not work to avert the crisis before it happens? Naaah. That wouldn't be 'strategy'.
'RE:'Well it won't as long as people vote for them.'
Well hallelujah! You are finally starting to see the bigger picture. '
Yet you are going to vote for them. Yes, I see the big picture. Your 'strategy' will end in the destruction of the country as each side tries to out do each other in inflicting as much damage as they can in order to blame the other. Their side will win that little game by the way, hands down.
'So the time I spend here arguing politics with you and others counts for nothing, right?'
Well.. pretty much.
'Other than what I post here, what do you know about what I do, hmm?
I actually hope it is very little at this point.
' Other than attacking me through all of this, what have you done to actively support John McCain? '
Workng on it.
'You think it stops with just sending contributions?'
No, not at all. Trust me.
'Beyond mere assertions, you have done nothing to show me where I am wrong. '
It is just plain common sense. You are entering the race to the bottom. Wishing for the worst to blame the other guy. What you are hoping for is a cycle of making a mess and pointing fingers. They will do the same and feel justified in doing so. Meanwhile the country and the people in it suffer.
'Show me a way to avoid this catastrophe, Bubba.'
Finish out our missions in Iraq and Afghanistan and leave al Qaeda broken and humiliated. Take a firm yet sensible stand against Iran. Control waste and spending to cut our defect and national debt. Take on the teachers unions and end the indoctrination instead of education. Formulate an intelligent national energy plan that will at first reduce the cost of oil and eventually eliminate the need for it. Secure our borders. Rebuild our manufacturing base. Find a solution to the health care issue and manage the rise of China and India... These would be good starts.
The way NOT to do it is to work for collapse in order to play the blame game.
'Whoopee-do! It's time to make your pitch, Bubba. '
I am not a salesman. I can tell you that McCain has a genuine love for the USA and Obama genuinely resents it. The road to hell might be paved with good intentions but I will take good intentions over self serving rhetoric.
'Slapping me around will NOT get your guy elected.'
No, but you have it coming bubba.
'Why is the GOP acting like a bunch of puppies with a bad case of kennel cough? '
Because they have screwed up. These past 7 years have not been what they could have been. You want a 'true rightest'? They wouldn't stand a snowballs chance in hell at the moment. Your 'strategic soul mates' on the other side of the aisle have done an excellent job on capitalizing on every setback that the country has had and pinned it on the GOP rather then working to fix the problems. The Media has been working overtime to help them. The result is that Bush is seen as the anti-Christ rather then just a par for the course president and this bunch of puppies doesn't want to get too close because they will get tossed out.
'They are still around because they have two qualities that overwhelm everything the Republicans throw at them. '
LOOK:
It is more then that, their message is omnipresent. From school to college to the way products are marketed to television. Watch MTV sometime... It is heard so often that it is accepted as reality. Obama is the culmination of this. A record-less, pandering, all things to all people human lie. All style over substance. If he fails, if it is shown that people can see through it, if they use their heads instead of capitulating to 'popularity' and fad or threats of being labeled a racist for disagreeing it might put a dent in the entire way they push their message. It might send them back to the drawing board. It might put them in disarray. It might get people to take a closer look at what they are being told by MSNBC and George Soros.
If you want to defeat them that is what you are going to have to figure out how to beat. The infrastructure that makes their message commonplace to the point of unquestioning acceptance. That is why I have spent the time here that I have. Trying to figure out how to shake people who are having their accepted beliefs challenged.
If it works and Obama, this cardboard cut out gets in, they will keep at it. Look at the results their strategy is producing. Trashing the country will only leave the country trashed.
' Take a good listen at Obama's speeches.'
Read them, then listen to them. It is amazing what a good orator he is. Better then Reagan.
'The other quality is that they are persistent. They never go away.'
So I guess they will still be around after they make a mess of things then... All that we will have is the mess to clean up.
'There would be no need to pin anything on the Democrats if Barak Obama was president, now would there?'
Watch the blame for the fiascoes that you envision fall on the usual suspects. As you demonstrate, people believe what they want to believe.
'Right in front of their news-puke buddies'
When Bill Clinton was president the were applauding the unemployment rate that they have been painting as catastrophic under bush, No, it doesn't work that way.
'f on the other hand, John McCain were President, guess who would get pinned with the blame, wouldn't he?'
Guess we got to help avoid a mess then instead of working to bring one about.
'What allies? The Dutch, the Danes and the Australians? The Brits? '
The gulf states is what I was refering to.
'We are not going to lose the war. '
Thanks for your support.
'NO! I am NOT going to do any damage to this country. The Democrats are. '
And you are enabling them.
'He is not inclined to hold the line against the Democrats.'
Perhaps he wants to put an end to trashing the country in order for people to get their own way.
'His campaign is doing nothing to motivate his rank and file.'
Sorry that you don't feel motivated.
'The Democrats are going to have full control of both houses of the legislature.'
And the presidency if you get your way.
'Oh, geez how could I have been so slow! '
You are crazy, that's how.
'No, I am not an Obama supporter, even though I a WILL vote for him.'
Idiot.
'Fascism is exactly what we already have--at least the first stages of it.'
You need to start making some giant paper mache puppets and get your self to protesting bubba.
'Big Mess by Democrats = Democrat Defeat. '
At what cost and there are smarter ways of defeating them. Having a better message and working harder is the usual way. Not voting for them, that is a good way. Yes, I get it, it is counterproductive, bad for the country and stupid to vote for someone because you think they will screw up. Traitorous to want to lose 2 wars so you can make Harry Reid look bad. I get it I get it I get it. It is a BAD IDEA.
'So you think the Democrats can do what the plan to do, making a huge mess, and that the American people will just go along with them like bunch of sheep. '
I think people like me will be working every step of the way to reduce the big mess that they will make instead of sitting on their rear ends like you and rooting for it to happen. The slide will be prolonged enough for them to do real damage ESPECIALLY with who they are nominating.
I have spelled this out as clear as I can.
'No, it would not be fun to lose a city, but then I think that if we were going to lose a city we would have already lost one. '
Oh, well, I guess it is imposable then.
'but all you have been defending the country from is external threats. '
At the moment I see you as an internal one. Playing from the same play book as your ideological enemies. They will win the game that you want to play with them. They will take it RIGHT TO THE BOTTOM.
'Compromising with them and their Democrat colleagues is dangerous. '
YOU ARE PLANNING ON VOTING FOR THEIR AGENDA!
'I have no reason to believe that the Democrats will waste that much time.'
Decent people will try to stop them.
'Our name is ALREADY mud. The newspukes have seen to that. '
No it isn't. Regardless, I will not sit by while it is made worse.
'I want an end to his political career.'
So work with his opponents to defeat him. You are helping him to have a long and in his eyes successful career as it stands now.
'I suspect that Senator Obama would be more than a little peeved to know what I see in him. '
He isn't going to see anything out of you bubba. All that he is going to get from you is another number signifying that you endorse his position and wish to see it become the law of the land.
'You see an unstoppable monster.'
Hopefully NOT unstoppable.
We've had liberal presidents before..and we are still here.
Enough of what? You quitin' already? Come on, Yorker! We both know you are tougher than that.
Re:'Thanks for your support.'
I have been supporting you and your brothers at arms. Just understand that worst of the war is on another front at the moment.
RE:'And you are enabling them.'
Yes.
RE:'Perhaps he wants to put an end to trashing the country in order for people to get their own way.'
Which is precisely what has created the conditions we are struggling to cope with right now. The 'center' of American politics has steadily shifted leftwards until a Jeremiah Wright barely causes a ripple of any concern whatsoever. His ties to the Weather Underground are ignored, even after the United States has been attacked by other terrorists. All of this is possible because it has become more and more acceptable to be raving leftist. Well, guess what. That is NOT acceptable to me. Compromise with these kinds of people is no longer acceptable. It is better to let them have it all there way for a little so people in the middle are ignored once again and the mess can be cleaned up. That's right, we on the right will clean up the mess just as we have done every time the left has made a mess. Fish or cut bait, Bubba.
Re:'Sorry that you don't feel motivated.'
John McCain for damned sure should be. When I take up a candidate's cause I am dead serious about it. Trouble is, I can't find John McCain's cause.
RE:'And the presidency if you get your way. '
Yes! That way, everything the Democrat led Legislature does the Democrats are obliged to take responsibility for because there were no Republicans in the loop. I'll ask again. WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN IF JOHN MCCAIN GETS ELECTED?
RE:'You are crazy, that's how.'
Says you. Show me how John McCain, of all people, is going to be of help while dominated by Democrats. Show me. I don't have good reason to believe that he can do that. Not eve Ronald Reagen could function under such circumstances. As far as I can see, John McCain would be doomed to become part of the mess. All that would accomplish would be to put a Republican stamp of approval on leftist behavior. Why would he of all people want to do such a thing?
RE:'Idiot.'
Strategic thinker.
RE:'You need to start making some giant paper mache puppets and get your self to protesting bubba.'
Har-har. Hardy. Har-har. You need to do a little more studying, Bubba. I ain't pullin' yore leg on this one.
RE:'At what cost... '
What ever cost is necessary to get the job done.
'...and there are smarter ways of defeating them. Having a better message and working harder is the usual way. Not voting for them, that is a good way. '
So lay the message on me, Bubba. The message I got from Senator McCain is that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are nice people. You gonna do better?
RE:'Yes, I get it, it is counterproductive, bad for the country and stupid to vote for someone because you think they will screw up.'
Show me how John McCain can avoid being a screwup, Bubba. Explain to me what you expect to see happen during a McCain Administration with the Democrats in control of the House and Senate. He is going to do it all on his own, is he? Boy, I am so impressed with that argument I could just schott.
Re:'Traitorous to want to lose 2 wars so you can make Harry Reid look bad. I get it I get it I get it. It is a BAD IDEA.'
The war with Harry Reid is the real war, Bubba. Leave Harry Reid in place and there is no way our military will be able to win the external conflicts. Don't you get it, yet? THE DEMOCRATS WANT US TO LOSE! More importantly, the Republicans have already surrendered. They believe the polling data. They are not even trying to make a comeback and John McCain is doing exactly nothing to help them make a comeback. The only way to defeat the Democrats now is to let them self-destruct. YES! It's gonna hurt like a sumbich! NO! I don't like it, but it IS what we are going to have to do.
That is, of course, unless you can make a real case that John McCain will be anything other than a complete disaster as President of the United States.
'RE:'I think people like me will be working every step of the way to reduce the big mess that they will make instead of sitting on their rear ends like you and rooting for it to happen. The slide will be prolonged enough for them to do real damage ESPECIALLY with who they are nominating.'
Lay off that BS, Bubba. I don't just sit on my ass. I've been working in politics off and on since Barry Goldwater. You have no right to lay that shit on me. YOU are in a state of panic. YOU are allowing this scrawny sidekick of George Soros buffalo you. He is not ten feet tall and bullet proof. The guy is a complete disaster whenever his handlers are not around to set him up.
RE:'I have spelled this out as clear as I can.'
No, you haven't. You could and should do a better job. Make your case for John McCain. Make a real case. Tell me what you think will happen if we elect him. I'm waiting to read it. Hell, who knows! I might even decide you're right and I'm wrong. Truck it out here so we can ALL see it.
RE:'YOU ARE PLANNING ON VOTING FOR THEIR AGENDA!'
Which is a far safer thing to do than to give them credibility by compromising with them. Let them screw up! How else do you propose to discredit them?
RE:'Decent people will try to stop them.'
How many decent people are there in Washington DC? The goopers who are left in DC are too busy imitating beached jellyfish to put up a fight. Especially after John McCain fussed at them for doing so.
RE:'So work with his opponents to defeat him. You are helping him to have a long and in his eyes successful career as it stands now.'
So he would lose this election, so what? That isn't enough to meet our needs, Bubba.
RE:'Hopefully NOT unstoppable.'
He's as brittle as carnival glass, Bubba. My whole program for handing the Democrats their own gonads on a platter may be ruined by that this fall.
If you did vote for MCCain...you would be sending Harry Reid a message you cannot get to him any other way? That, I'm afraid, is your choice. 'won't get anything done...?' well, Bush has managed to get legislation he wanted passed, even with a 30% approval rating, in a dem congress and to stymy legislation he disagreed with, and he's supposed to be the dumbest bastard on earth.
We've may have been sold a bill of goods: If MCCain wins, it will, undeniably, be a referendum on the Iraqi war and it will, undeniably, mean folks do not tow the dem line. Crazier crap has happened.
Remember: NIXON was voted in in 1968!
Perhaps THAT is shared power, not electing a neophyte, but sending a message to those who will not get one any other way.
Try again, SP4. I'm not sure I follow you.
BTW, the only thing I want to send Harry Reid is a pink slip.
Here's some stuff I missed, Bubba. I have to be back at my anvil tomorrow so I might go missing for a day or two. Don't worry, though. I'll be back.
RE:'Finish out our missions in Iraq and Afghanistan and leave al Qaeda broken and humiliated.'
Agreed, but how can John McCain accomplish this with the likes of Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi running the legislature?
RE:'Take a firm yet sensible stand against Iran.'
A firm yet sensible stand? Against Iran? You wanna 'splain to me what that might be?
RE:'Control waste and spending to cut our deficit and national debt.'
While Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton insist on implementing changes to health care? Surely you realize that McCain's plan hasn't got a chance with that bunch running the legislature. Oh, and there is the 21 Trillion Dollar Green Monster we both know is waiting in the wings. You, know, the one Senator McCain didn't like because it didn't have enough money allotted to the development of nuclear power? Then of course, the Democrats want to 'Do Something' about housing. Oh, yeah. Sir John is going to have a lot of luck curbing that, I'm sure.
RE:'Take on the teachers unions and end the indoctrination instead of education.'
You want to kill the teacher's unions? Kill federal support for state run school systems. Good luck.
RE:'Formulate an intelligent national energy plan that will at first reduce the cost of oil and eventually eliminate the need for it.'
I agree with you whole heartedly with this approach, but it is NOT the approach that has been adopted by Senator McCain.
RE:'Secure our borders.'
McCain-Kennedy?
RE:' Rebuild our manufacturing base.'
Trade treaties! Especially the treaties with China. The only way we will EVER get mfg back is by changing labor and insurance laws. John McCain is going to jam that kind of legislation through the Reid's Senate and Pelosi's House? What's he going to do? Hire Hermione Granger to give him hand?
RE:'Find a solution to the health care issue'
You want a solution to health care? Get the government out of it.
RE:'...and manage the rise of China and India...'
Bubba, India and China are going to manage the rise of India and China, not us. We should work harder at developing better relations with India, but if you really want to get that done, you will have to fire about half of the bunch now working at the Department of State.
RE:'Again, you are not getting it. There are many who will elect/reelect him because he is not Bush or because he is black or because he says the things they want to hear. This is not about merits or qualifications. This is about his cult of personality. When he screws up the narrative will be because the neo-cons stopped him or because he wasn't allowed to go far enough or because of racism... Not because of his actions. When he fails it will be someone else's fault, the usual suspects. Look how he has handled all that has been thrown at him! Deny, stall, tell people they do not understand, question their motives for wanting an explanation and when left with no other choice, toss someone under the bus and proceed with business as usual. There haven't been any changes in core beliefs here and certainly not in the direction the campaign is taking. He is continuing on exactly as before and the people are eating it up.'
Oh, ye of little faith. Of course his hard core fan base will keep right on believing in him. So what? You act as though this guy capable of psionic mind control. HE IS NOT A SUPER POWERFUL ALIEN! He can't even do those old Jedi mind tricks. His campaign is nothing more than the same old drivel that the Democrats have been selling since FDR. When scripted, Barack Obama is an incredibly powerful orator. So frikkin' what? You are running scared of this hollow little man for no reason. I'll be lucky if he doesn't fall apart early this fall and hand the whole thing over to John McCain.
RE:'It is more then that, their message is omnipresent. From school to college to the way products are marketed to television. Watch MTV sometime... It is heard so often that it is accepted as reality. Obama is the culmination of this. A record-less, pandering, all things to all people human lie. All style over substance. If he fails, if it is shown that people can see through it, if they use their heads instead of capitulating to 'popularity' and fad or threats of being labeled a racist for disagreeing it might put a dent in the entire way they push their message. It might send them back to the drawing board. It might put them in disarray. It might get people to take a closer look at what they are being told by MSNBC and George Soros. '
If you want to defeat them that is what you are going to have to figure out how to beat. The infrastructure that makes their message commonplace to the point of unquestioning acceptance. That is why I have spent the time here that I have. Trying to figure out how to shake people who are having their accepted beliefs challenged.'
Reality is a harsh mistress.
Re:'Watch the blame for the fiascoes that you envision fall on the usual suspects. As you demonstrate, people believe what they want to believe.'
Oh, give it a rest. Some people really are that stupid, it's true, but by no means are all of them that stupid. Most of them are thoroughly pissed off at the government right now. They think, rightly, that the government is being run by a bunch of idiots.
“No, you haven't. You could and should do a better job. Make your case for John McCain.”
On this thread alone I posted about 45 paragraphs on why McCain over Obama is a no brinier. A previous post got deleted because it was too long. Indeed, you well know what the ramifications of an Obama presidency are, you have posted some. The very best case for John McCain is that he will work hard to prevent what you want to occur. Collapse, bankruptcy, surrender.
“Make your case for John McCain. Make a real case”
Why repeat myself? To indulge you? You have made up your fool mind, go disgrace yourself. Just don’t pretend that you are doing it on principal, on strategy or even that it isn’t beyond stupid.
“Which is a far safer thing to do than to give them credibility by compromising with them.”
You are voting for them, there is no more credibility that they need. Winning elections is the beginning and end of legitimacy in a democracy. Deal with it.
“Let them screw up! How else do you propose to discredit them?”
They have already discredited themselves. Their approval rating is 14%. I think seeing them trying to pass pork-laden legislature and then trying to overcome the veto to get their bridges to nowhere and their bankruptcy causing entitlement programs will drive those numbers down further. Trying to de-fund a war that we are winning will get their approval ratings down to zero.
“Especially after John McCain fussed at them for doing so.”
Where has he fussed at them for fighting the democrats? I can only think of him stopping the nuclear option and guess what, the republicans were wrong on that.
“So he would lose this election, so what? That isn't enough to meet our needs, Bubba.”
Yes, it is. Moreover, it is all you are going to get, ever. That is an excuse for not getting off your ass and fighting the good fight. Coward.
“My whole program for handing the Democrats their own gonads on a platter may be ruined by that this fall.”
You don’t have a 'program' for anything, only a STUPID pipe dream.
“BTW, the only thing I want to send Harry Reid is a pink slip.”
Gee, is that why you are going to make him a hero among the democrat party for endorsing his defeat America strategy by doing EXACTALY what he was after? Electing a democrat president? It is so unbelievably stupid that you think that would EVER come back to haunt him. He would be a hero, he would go out as such.
“I have to be back at my anvil tomorrow so I might go missing for a day or two. Don't worry, though. I'll be back.”
Hope your anvil falls on you.
“Agreed, but how can John McCain accomplish this with the likes of Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi running the legislature?”
Pay Attention for once, FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME: If McCain is commander in chief the only choice they will have in order to keep their promises to their far left wing nut cakes to withdraw funding. THAT WILL REALLY END THEIR CAREERS. How many fricking times can I say that? Their only choice will be to disappoint the hell out of their constituency and they are running out of excuses with them OR TAKE A VERY PUBLIC AND MESSY STANCE TO DE-FUND THE WAR. Either way they will lose big. They lose if they force a surrender, they will lose to their constituency if they do not force a surrender. Can't you see that?
If Obama makes the decision for them they are heroes for standing up to Bush all this time. He might even be able to pull it off. How would that look? 'Reid/Pelosi/Obama successfully ended the war that bush lied to get us in to.' You would have them in power for decades, you IDIOT.
“You wanna 'splain to me what that might be?”
No, you are a colossal waste of time. It is like explaining things to a 2 year old. You are just going to need it explained again.
“Oh, ye of little faith.”
I think your 'plan' is beyond stupid. The country cannot survive if half of the people are trying to tear it down at any given time. It is reprehensible of you to even think that way and incredibly childish to be throwing this temper tantrum until you see whomever jump through whatever hoop you want them to jump through. I would rather see him lose your vote then compromise his vision to appease your nutty vision of how things should be.
“Reality is a harsh mistress.”
How the hell would you know?
Pay Attention for once, FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME: If McCain is commander in chief the only choice they will have in order to keep their promises to their far left wing nut cakes to withdraw funding. THAT WILL REALLY END THEIR CAREERS. How many fricking times can I say that? Their only choice will be to disappoint the hell out of their constituency and they are running out of excuses with them OR TAKE A VERY PUBLIC AND MESSY STANCE TO DE-FUND THE WAR. Either way they will lose big. They lose if they force a surrender, they will lose to their constituency if they do not force a surrender. Can't you see that?
If Obama makes the decision for them they are heroes for standing up to Bush all this time. He might even be able to pull it off. How would that look? 'Reid/Pelosi/Obama successfully ended the war that bush lied to get us in to.' You would have them in power for decades, (No matter what they screwed up) you IDIOT.
Ed Lasky
Brig. General Qassem Soleimani, commander of the Quds Force of the terror group the Iranian Revolutionary Guard is biding his time, afraid to stoke terror while President Bush is in his waning days in the Oval Office. Instead, says Washington Post columnist David Ignatius who interviewed him, he 'prefers to run out the clock on the Bush Administration, hoping the next administration will be more favorable to Iran's interest.'
RE:'Pay Attention for once, FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME: If McCain is commander in chief the only choice they will have in order to keep their promises to their far left wing nut cakes to withdraw funding. THAT WILL REALLY END THEIR CAREERS. How many fricking times can I say that? Their only choice will be to disappoint the hell out of their constituency and they are running out of excuses with them OR TAKE A VERY PUBLIC AND MESSY STANCE TO DE-FUND THE WAR. Either way they will lose big. They lose if they force a surrender, they will lose to their constituency if they do not force a surrender. Can't you see that?'
This is only the second time that you have posted this argument. It's flawed, but it is the best argument you have made thus far. They can afford to disappoint the noisy end of their spectrum, the numbers on that end are not that large. Worse, Obama will NOT be able to simply withdraw from Iraq as quickly as he would like. He will have to listen to the Joint Chiefs, the Saudis and guys like Joe Lieberman. He has set himself up for a major hit over this.
RE:'If Obama makes the decision for them they are heroes for standing up to Bush all this time. He might even be able to pull it off. How would that look? 'Reid/Pelosi/Obama successfully ended the war that bush lied to get us in to.' You would have them in power for decades, (No matter what they screwed up) you IDIOT.'
You really are naive when it comes to dealing with Democrats. Harry Reid knows that we cannot simply run away in Iraq. That's the reason I despise him so much. But he WILL use war funding as a lever to get all the other stuff he wants from a McCain Administration. We will suffer through the same misery under a McCain Administration as we would an Obama Administration and we will keep right on fighting in Afghanistan while trying to hold Iraq together. All we will do by electing John McCain is to put the Republican stamp of approval on leftist policies. That alone would be a major strategic victory for the Democrats. It will haunt the GOP for decades.
Now, I gotta go hammer on some steel while it's still hot.
Be seen' ya.
Here's a little food for thought, or fuel for the fire if you prefer, Bubba.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/06/AR200806060315 2.html
www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=auwdeE7WWPuc&refer=home
//article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDllYTY5NzA2OTk2YzNhZTIyZGUwYzU5OTc4MzVhZDY =&w=MA==
//www.usvetdsp.com/mar08/mccain_manchurian.htm
'No, I will never run for president.'
- Hillary Clinton (numerous times)
Well, at least it's over now, we can finaly get to beating Mcain and the republican party into a fine pink mist.
'This is only the second time that you have posted this argument.'
Not true and spelling everything out to you on a public forum isn't going to help matters in November.
'Worse, Obama will NOT be able to simply withdraw from Iraq as quickly as he would like. He will have to listen to the Joint Chiefs, the Saudis and guys like Joe Lieberman. He has set himself up for a major hit over this.'
He has said, dozens of times that he will do so regardless of the conditions on the ground. The Marines have been told that they might get in to a situation where they have to destroy equipment in place to facilitate withdrawal if Obama gets in.
'You really are naive when it comes to dealing with Democrats.'
YOU ARE PLANNING ON VOTING FOR THEM and you are insane enough to call someone else naive?
' Harry Reid knows that we cannot simply run away in Iraq. '
Harry Reid could not care less what happens to Iraq or America for that matter. He wants Iraq to be a fiasco so it can be a millstone to hang around Bush's neck. Harry Reid WANTS failure in Iraq and you are planning to enable him to get what he wants the only way he has left to get it.
'That's the reason I despise him so much. '
You are helping him to get everything he has ever wanted out of his career in government. Idiot.
'But he WILL use war funding as a lever to get all the other stuff he wants from a McCain Administration.'
How? It is a game of chicken that Mac would just love to play. You clearly don't know anything about him other then what has been pounded in your ears by your brown shirted, end times believing Texas AM radio.
'. We will suffer through the same misery under a McCain Administration as we would an Obama Administration'
You have yet to present any intelligent argument to that effect. Because McCain might cooperate on some issues? He is not going to cooperate on this. You think he will be helpless? Has bush been? You don't seem to understand the whole checks and balances thing from civics class, as well as the high concept that t is STUPID to vote for someone like Obama because you believe he will screw up the country so you might be able to blame him for it. I am probably the last fool on earth that is paying any attention to you what so ever.
'and we will keep right on fighting in Afghanistan while trying to hold Iraq together.'
We are winning in Iraq and we need to keep fighting in Afghanistan.
'All we will do by electing John McCain is to put the Republican stamp of approval on leftist policies'
McCain is going to be running against congress. You keep on talking about bubba and linda lou or whatever, they will know who to blame. Pelosi is in there for good but Reid can go the way of Tom Daschle but Nevada is not an entirely blue state. Will giving him more power help to get rid of him? After giving him everything he has ever asked for you are going to need dynamite to get him out.
I am now of the opinion that you are actually a hard core daily kos reading adolescent Trotskyite posing as a codger from Texas. No one could HONESTLY lose their mind this much.
'Now, I gotta go hammer on some steel while it's still hot.'
Try using a hammer instead of your head, idiot.
'Brig. Gen. Qassem Soleimani, the commander of the Quds Force of Iran's Revolutionary Guard..... has expressed no interest in direct, high-level talks. The Quds Force commander prefers to run out the clock on the Bush administration, hoping that the next administration will be more favorable to Iran's interests.'
Do you think he is talking about McCain?
The Quds Force had it's ass kicked in Basra by the Iraqis themselves by the way.
'Global Obamamania has been about hope, not fact.'
You know this, and you are hoping for the worst for the USA...
'Well, at least it's over now, we can finaly get to beating Mcain and the republican party into a fine pink mist.'
You couldn't beat your way out of a wet paper bag.
How is it NOT front-page worthy that a sitting president of the United States had 35 articles of impeachment brought against him yesterday?
How is it NOT newsworthy that phase II of the Senate Intelligence Report regarding the runup to the Iraqi occupation was released yesterday, finding that the Bush administration actually DID exaggerate and manipulate intelligence information to garner support for the occupation??
'Terrorfied'[sic]
Good lord.
'How is it NOT front-page worthy that a sitting president of the United States had 35 articles of impeachment brought against him yesterday?'
Because he didn't. Kucinich doesn't have a case and they know it.
' finding that the Bush administration actually DID exaggerate and manipulate intelligence information to garner support for the occupation??'
Because that is not what it said. The New York Sun's editorial board notes that Rockefeller deliberately manipulated data for his committee's report to support the 'Bush Lied' BS:
Mr. Rockefeller decided to exclude a handwritten note from the CIA's terrorism analyst of the Mr. Bush's 2002 speech in Cincinnati on the eve of the Congressional vote authorizing the war saying the paragraphs about Iraq and terrorism were 'all-Okay.' Wrote Senators Bond, Chambliss, Hatch, and Burr in an addendum to the report: 'Apparently the majority did not think this was something the public needed to know since they denied our request to include it and did not allow a vote on the amendment offered to fix this shortcoming.'
www.nysun.com/editorials/the-senates-intelligence/79553/?print=70751031 21
EVEN STILL:
Fred Hiatt in the Washington Post:
But dive into Rockefeller's report, in search of where exactly President Bush lied about what his intelligence agencies were telling him about the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, and you may be surprised by what you find.
On Iraq's nuclear weapons program? The president's statements 'were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates.'
On biological weapons, production capability and those infamous mobile laboratories? The president's statements 'were substantiated by intelligence information.'
On chemical weapons, then? 'Substantiated by intelligence information.'
On weapons of mass destruction overall (a separate section of the intelligence committee report)? 'Generally substantiated by intelligence information.' Delivery vehicles such as ballistic missiles? 'Generally substantiated by available intelligence.' Unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to deliver WMDs? 'Generally substantiated by intelligence information.'
Hiatt also brings up Rockefeller's own inconvenient quote from October 2002:
'There has been some debate over how 'imminent' a threat Iraq poses. I do believe Iraq poses an imminent threat. I also believe after September 11, that question is increasingly outdated. . . . To insist on further evidence could put some of our fellow Americans at risk. Can we afford to take that chance? I do not think we can.'
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/08/AR200806080168 7.html
Verdict: Jay Rockefeller is a hyper-partisan weasel trying to project his own lack of character on others.
RE:'Not true and spelling everything out to you on a public forum isn't going to help matters in November.'
Yes, it's true. Yes, it WILL help in November if you can learn to make an argument for YOUR guy rather than wasting bandwidth on insults aimed at me. Have you noticed that the Goopers are showing some life? Maybe they don't like being called beached jellyfish.
Having said that, I still think you are backing a very bad candidate, but that's your privilege. Trouble is, you aren't doing a particularly good job. Your focus is on me. That's silly. It makes me wonder if I haven't got you by the short hairs on this one. You wanna support John McCain? Then you gotta make a case FOR John McCain, not a case against me. You keep trying to make a case against me, so maybe you can't make a case for John McCain. Personally, I don't think a case CAN be made for John McCain.
RE:'He has said, dozens of times that he will do so regardless of the conditions on the ground. The Marines have been told that they might get in to a situation where they have to destroy equipment in place to facilitate withdrawal if Obama gets in.'
You haven't been keeping up with current events, Bubba. He has changed his stance on this multiple times. Oh, and the Bush Administration has very quietly changed its stance. We are on the way out of Iraq right now. Do you know why? BECAUSE WE HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE! Iran already owns the place. That's the reason I posted that article from the Washington Post:
'After a particularly heavy day of shelling, Gen. David Petraeus sent Soleimani a message -- 'Stop shooting at the Green Zone.' The message was conveyed verbally by Iraqi President Jalal Talabani. The Quds Force commander didn't react immediately. But the heavy mortar fire on the Green Zone soon tapered off. Iran had flexed its muscles and demonstrated America's vulnerability, and then opted for a tactical retreat.'
What do suppose is going on when two enemy commanders talk to each other like this? It means that a deal has been cut, doesn't it?
Do you know what the Brits were planning to do in Basra if the balloon went up between us and Iran? Do you know why President Bush has not already bombed the bejeebers out of the Iranians? Better check.
RE:'YOU ARE PLANNING ON VOTING FOR THEM and you are insane enough to call someone else naive?'
I call you naive, because you obviously ARE naive. Sometimes that is a very good thing, especially when you are making a case for YOUR GUY (no matter who YOUR GUY might be), but you aren't doing a very good job of supporting John McCain.
RE:'Harry Reid could not care less what happens to Iraq or America for that matter. He wants Iraq to be a fiasco so it can be a millstone to hang around Bush's neck. Harry Reid WANTS failure in Iraq and you are planning to enable him to get what he wants the only way he has left to get it.'
Yes, he does, because he values his own ass enough to know where to draw the line. Were he to play this wrong, he'd be hanging the millstone around Obama's neck. They only play this kind of game when it hurts Republicans, Bubba.
RE:'You are helping him to get everything he has ever wanted out of his career in government. Idiot.'
Yes, I am helping him to get EVERYTHING he wants while making certain that there is no Republican stamp of approval on what he does. Oh, and there are already signs that a major backlash is building up. I just hope it doesn't blow too soon.
RE:'How? It is a game of chicken that Mac would just love to play. You clearly don't know anything about him other then what has been pounded in your ears by your brown shirted, end times believing Texas AM radio.'
Oh, you mean like he is playing chicken with them on the energy issue? A far more important issue than what is going on overseas? The issue that is, in fact, the real solution to the problems we are having overseas? When has John McCain EVER played chicken with Congress, hmm? He played chicken with George Bush and Rick Santorum quite a bit, but since when has John McCain tried to make the Democrats nervous?
RE:'Because McCain might cooperate on some issues?'
He will give them whatever they want to sustain our presence in Iraq and to tackle Iran in the way he sees fit.
RE:'You think he will be helpless?'
He has already tied his own hands, Bubba. Listen to what the man says.
RE:'Has bush been?'
Bush has not been helpless because there are still enough Republicans in the legislature to put up a fight. That is about to disappear, isn't? Or up until just the last couple of days, looked inevitable because the Republicans have been acting like beached jellyfish. Barring a real hard campaign by REAL Republicans, I have no reason to think that a pale horse like John McCain can hold his own against a Democrat majority, especially when everything he has said and done during this stage of his campaign says that he likes the Democrats AND their policies.
RE:'You don't seem to understand the whole checks and balances thing from civics class, as well as the high concept that t is STUPID to vote for someone like Obama because you believe he will screw up the country so you might be able to blame him for it.'
Why would I want to spare Harry Reid the consequences of his actions? I will repeat, for you thickheaded benefit, that the PEOPLE are the final check on our government. You, it seems, think that Americans are just a bunch of sheeple that will do whatever Ted Turner et al wants them to do. YOU ARE WRONG.
RE:'I am probably the last fool on earth that is paying any attention to you what so ever.'
I have never considered you to be a fool. I picked this fight with you because thought better than that of you. Rest assured of one thing. This little ruckus has not gone on without being noticed and I am a long, long way from being finished. I'm not going to let up on Senator McCain.
RE:'We are winning in Iraq and we need to keep fighting in Afghanistan.'
No, Iraq is pretty much a settled issue. The Bush State Department as much as said so day before yesterday. We are NOT going to establish permanent bases in Iraq. We ARE working on a schedule for withdrawal. Here is something you and everyone else on this board needs to take the time to read:
//www.chathamhouse.org.uk/files/3376_iran0806.pdf
RE:'McCain is going to be running against congress.'
You mean the way he is running against them now? I remain unimpressed.
RE:'You keep on talking about bubba and linda lou or whatever, they will know who to blame.'
Yes, they most certainly will. My plan will remove all room for doubt from their minds.
RE:'Pelosi is in there for good...'
But not necessarily as Speaker of the House. Oh, and there is the off chance that the Move.On crowd will get behind Cindy Sheehan and throw Nancy out on her fancy ass.
RE:'...but Reid can go the way of Tom Daschle but Nevada is not an entirely blue state.'
Yes, he could, but that can't happen before 2010. He could die in an accident maybe, or we might catch him out on a impeachable offense, but we can't count on the first and he leads a life cleaner than Ralph Nader's so the second option is so unlikely that does not bear discussion.
RE:'Will giving him more power help to get rid of him? After giving him everything he has ever asked for you are going to need dynamite to get him out.'
I'm dead certain that letting him have his way will destroy him. He is his own dynamite. You are the one who thinks that all Americans are nothing but passive sheeple, remember? I KNOW you're full of beans on that one and I am certain that the Democrats will self-destruct. In fact, they are doing a fairly good job of that already even though all of the networks, including FOX, are championing the Democrat cause.
RE:'I am now of the opinion that you are actually a hard core daily kos reading adolescent Trotskyite posing as a codger from Texas. No one could HONESTLY lose their mind this much.'
What is kos? Yes, I can see where you might well think I am a Trotskyite, but then, that is what I think of John McCain. He is a leftist masquerading as a Republican. I can almost forgive him for that because I am not certain that he realizes what he has become. He is a very poor choice for the GOP and he will make a thoroughly miserable president.
'Yes, it WILL help in November if you can learn to make an argument for YOUR guy rather than wasting bandwidth on insults aimed at me.'
It is a fair assessment that not enough of a compelling case has been made to advocate FOR McCain. Much has been made of advocating AGAINST Obama. I acknowledge this. However, the situation as it pertains to you specifically is not the same as what is going to be faced unless there is some secret army 'right of Mussolini' madmen who have rationalized tearing down the country in order to be able to point to the wreckage of what better people have built and tried to preserve and say: 'Look at what they did'. This is EXACTLY the same dirty tactics that have gotten us to where we are now. You are not only endorsing the dirty tactics you are planning on rewarding those who have employed them.
Hear this: I find the entire concept incredibly dishonorable and a sure pathway to the end of the USA. We simply can not survive with half the country trying to build America and the other half trying to grind it under, alternating depending on who wins that years election.
'Having said that, I still think you are backing a very bad candidate, but that's your privilege. '
Firstly, Look who you are backing. Secondly, he is closer in line to what you say you believe then our current Republican president. Thirdly, while there are ideas of his that I disagree with I believe that he has examined the issues and thoughtfully come to a conclusion that he can articulate a defense of. Most importantly, and what you have been missing all along, is that he will not have the last word on these issues of either agreement or disagreement. There are advocacy groups and other means of bringing political pressure to bear that can and will be employed to prevent him from going too far off the reservation. He will take them in to consideration, as will other senators and congressmen. (look at the uproar over his immigration bill, and yes, he is serious about enforcement first.)
If Obama is swept in with the adoration of his messianic message of BS by all his dim eyed followers do you think he is going to listen to a thing from the right or center? If I were him I wouldn't. He is going to have enough core support to keep it going, just as Bush has. Meanwhile people like you will be pointing to the mess he makes and saying 'see, I told you so' and people like me will be trying to clean it up because we care about the country, not just making the other party look bad.
'Then you gotta make a case FOR John McCain, not a case against me.'
I have both. I think you want to be personally promised the sun and moon and I am not going to be making personal promises on behalf of someone else. I have related his positions. I am not in the position to change them because I am not John McCain. Further, since your stated objective is to see a collapse anything I tell you that might forestall such an event isn't a 'selling point'. The positives have become negatives in this little upside down paradigm you are living in. You have acknowledged yourself that he will be better for the country then the alternative, yet you are going to support the alternative in a deliberate 'strategy' to drag the country down.
'Personally, I don't think a case CAN be made for John McCain.'
Perhaps not one that you are willing to hear. Fiscal responsibility... Nope, he might cooperate. Staying in Iraq until our mission objectives are accomplished... Nope Obama is lying when he says otherwise... It will leave the democratic party in disarray and not reward their seditious behavior in a time of war... Nope, better to reboot because he might compromise... He will not appease countries that are our sworn enemies and won't abandon our allies... nope, I don't like harry reid and compromise... a deficit hawk against the pork barrel spending that has all but bankrupted us... said something nice about Hillary, compromise...He is for small government and has acted upon it at every opportunity... nope, 'LA LA LA REBOOT'... Voted with the republicans 95% of the time... nope, there was that 5%, cooperate.. Proven leadership, bravery, humbling sacrifice, honest patriotism, tough, experienced... Nope, compromised... He has a lifetime rating of 82 percent from the American Conservative Union.. Nope he said something nice about Pelosi's hair... I am going to vote for the guy who has a perfect record, as the most liberal senator according to the National Journal...
And somehow you have rationalized it so that he is the one who has compromised and not you. Who would YOU have?
'You haven't been keeping up with current events, Bubba. He has changed his stance on this multiple times.'
Not recently. Here, this is his current position:
* In 2003 and 2004, he spoke out against the war on the campaign trail;
* In 2005, he called for a phased withdrawal of our troops;
* In 2006, he called for a timetable to remove our troops, a political solution within Iraq, and aggressive diplomacy with all of Iraq’s neighbors;
* In January 2007, he introduced legislation in the Senate to remove all of our combat troops from Iraq by March 2008.
* In September 2007, he laid out a detailed plan for how he will end the war as president.
Bringing Our Troops Home
Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He willremove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.
So he is going to withdraw, regardless of the conditions on the ground 'all of our combat brigades' out of Iraq to nearby countries to periodically bomb al Qaeda or attack them with the less then brigade strength, non combat embassy staff... It is so unfathomably stupid, so completely brain dead... Yet you know this and it is what you want. It will cost more American lives, yet that is OK with you.
'Oh, and the Bush Administration has very quietly changed its stance.'
How specifically? Let's hear it. Where has bush stated we are retreating because Iran owns the place.
'Do you know why? BECAUSE WE HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE! Iran already owns the place. That's the reason I posted that article from the Washington Post...What do suppose is going on when two enemy commanders talk to each other like this? '
If Iran 'owned the place' they wouldn't have gotten their asses kicked in Sadr city and Basra recently. Amazing, You are actually screwed up enough to take the word of 'Brig. Gen. Qassem Soleimani, the commander of the Quds Force of Iran's Revolutionary Guard' at face value for what is going on in Iraq.
'Do you know what the Brits were planning to do in Basra if the balloon went up between us and Iran?'
Go from hiding at the Basra international to hiding at RAF Honington. ('if the balloon went up...' Come on.)
'Do you know why President Bush has not already bombed the bejeebers out of the Iranians? '
1)Because they would make things pretty difficult. 2) Because no one read past the first sentence of the previous intelligence report on Iran's nuclear weapons ambitions.
'but you aren't doing a very good job of supporting John McCain. '
How would you do it if you were supporting him? What sweet sweet words do you want to hear? Do you want to be lied to? Flattered? Do you want him to tell you that he feels your pain?
'Yes, he does, because he values his own ass enough to know where to draw the line'
The finger will always be pointed at Bush for getting us in to it in the first place. Seriously, what part of: 'Obama...will have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months' do you not get? They are serious. Ask yourself this; what if it works? Will you be able to get rid of Harry Reid then? Ask me to repeat that again, you needy idiot.
' I am helping him to get EVERYTHING he wants while making certain that there is no Republican stamp of approval on what he does.'
Because you are after 'riots' and breakdowns at the grocery stores and disasters at the clinics. You want as much agony as possible to pin ity on the democrats, yes, I get it. It is stupid, it will not work, it is dishonorable, it is immoral and it is everything that Harry Reid has done. ONCE AGAIN, WITH THE MEDIA AND THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE IN TOW IT WILL NOT WORK THE WAY YOU WISH IT TO.
'Oh, you mean like he is playing chicken with them on the energy issue? '
That is your problem with him in a nutshell.
Yes, he will play chicken with them over defending the way because HE ISN'T an IDIOT. He knows that is a win/win situation.
'He will give them whatever they want to sustain our presence in Iraq and to tackle Iran in the way he sees fit. '
He has no need to compromise there. And again, with your paranoia.
'Bush has not been helpless because there are still enough Republicans in the legislature to put up a fight. That is about to disappear, isn't?'
No, they will not have a veto proof majority.
'Barring a real hard campaign by REAL Republicans,'
You are no one to be calling anyone else a 'real republican', or a real American for that matter.
'especially when everything he has said and done during this stage of his campaign says that he likes the Democrats AND their policies. '
He is running a centrist campaign. Guess he will have to forgo the people who wish to wreck the country and pin it on the democrats vote.
'Why would I want to spare Harry Reid the consequences of his actions?'
Because you are an irrational idiot who believes that by HELPING HIM TO GET EVERYTHING HE WANTS you will somehow be punishing him. You are going to need dynamite to get rid of the Harry Reids in office after you are through endorsing their tactics and voting for their candidates. ANY IDIOT CAN SEE THAT.
'for you thickheaded benefit, that the PEOPLE are the final check on our government'
And right now, I will repeat for your thickheaded benefit the people will figure it out after it is too late. Don't you get it? Lots of these 'people' are going to be largely foreign born with different alliegences then to America's future. Lots of these 'people' are not going to vote someone out who is running up a gigantic, unplayable debt. (By the way, he could effectively bankrupt the country by the end of his first term, you unbelievable moron) Lots of these 'people' resent the fact that productive members of society have more then they do, Lots of these 'people' hold on to their entitlements with a death grip. Show me an entitlement program that once it has been started has been voluntarily given back by 'the people'? Show me 1. A single entitlement program that once started has been given up by 'the people'. SHOW ME ONE.
You are opening the door to something that just will not be whisked away. It will take ages to undo the mess and break the cycle of government dependency that JUST PERPETUATES ITSELF!
'YOU ARE WRONG.'
I have a lot more respect for the American people then to think that the only way to motivate them is to allow the country to go to the brink of disaster in order to scare some sense in to them. I recognize that going to the brink is not a guarantee of coming back from it. I understand that it is a STUPID idea.
'This little ruckus has not gone on without being noticed'
Noticed by what? You had better hope it isn't noticed by anyone who has the power to commit you because you just sound duplicitous and nuts.
'and I am a long, long way from being finished. I'm not going to let up on Senator McCain. '
Have fun, I am not going to have the time to indulge you.
'This little ruckus has not gone on without being noticed'
Just what do you think you are accomplishing here?
It just hit me, you REALLY are delusional.
“Yes, they most certainly will. My plan will remove all room for doubt from their minds.“
Your “plan” is crazy. I’m serious.
“Oh, and there is the off chance that the Move.On crowd will get behind Cindy Sheehan and throw Nancy out on her fancy ass.”
Crazy.
“I'm dead certain that letting him have his way will destroy him.”
And the country.
“I KNOW you're full of beans on that one and I am certain that the Democrats will self-destruct.”
Give them full control, watch them make a mess and point out that they made one, yes, got it, a million times over. Stupid, dishonorable, destructive, unworkable. You are going to get yourself labeled as someone who was sent here by the DNC to sew confusion and disunity among the Republicans in order to get Obama in office. It is probably the fact.
It turns out that Jim Johnson was not the man Barack Obama thought he knew. The presumptive Democratic Presidential nominee threw the former Fannie Mae CEO over the side as his Vice Presidential vetter yesterday, only a day after he'd said that Mr. Johnson was only 'tangentially related' to his campaign and that criticism was a 'game that can be played.'
Mr. Johnson was cast off after the Journal disclosed that he had received sweetheart loans from Countrywide Financial – the very firm that Mr. Obama has specifically excoriated for its role in the mortgage meltdown. The press corps will now move on to other things, but this is more than a campaign issue. The disclosure about Mr. Johnson and his successor as Fannie CEO, Franklin Raines, raises serious questions about the extent to which favorable mortgage pricing contributed to Countrywide's rise and fall. At a minimum, a regulatory probe is warranted.
As for Mr. Obama, Mr. Johnson now joins an intriguing and growing list of Mr. Obama's ex-associates that includes the Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Father Michael Pfleger, and former terrorist bomber William Ayers. We might call this list eclectic, except that there is a consistent pattern of bad judgment followed by an initial defense, then followed by rapid disassociation and regret that none of them were the men Mr. Obama 'knew.'
We can only wonder if Eric Holder, who is also among Mr. Obama's veep vetters, will be the next to join this club. As Deputy Attorney General in the Clinton Administration, he played a role in the Marc Rich pardon that also deserves to be fully vetted – all the more so if Mr. Holder is on the short list to be Mr. Obama's Attorney General. Caroline Kennedy, the other member of Mr. Obama's veep vetting team, has probably already inherited a stack of files from Mr. Johnson. She might want to take a peek at Mr. Holder's too.
wsj.com/article/SB121322730344966113.html
RE:'And somehow you have rationalized it so that he is the one who has compromised and not you. Who would YOU have?'
Someone who is loyal to his party and actually agrees with the basic tenets of his party. Someone like Mitt Romney, even though I would not insist on Mitt Romney as the only possible Republican candidate.
You have unthinkingly swallowed Lou Dobbs 'reasoning' without considering the implications. Has it not crossed your mind that you might want to exercise some caution before accepting that thesis? Apparently not. Here is some more reading for you, Bubba.
//www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=13344
You made a crack me wanting 'one party rule' in the US. Well, guess what. If the Republicans keep giving ground to the Democrats that is EXACTLY what we will have and we will change our name to the Democratic People's Republic of America. The Democrats are doing everything they can think of to stifle speech in this country and, much to my disgust, John McCain has sided with them. We dare not say anything that might Senator McCain's Democrat buddies lest we are willing to suffer his ire.
Let me give you a few tips. It does not do your advocacy any good to damn the devil. The devil is already damned by definition. Your focus should be on making a case for your client, John McCain. Your secondary mission is to make a case against his nemesis, Barack Obama. Calling me names and attacking me serves your purposes not one iota. YES! I have taken the position of the devil! This is an inquisition to determine the answer to a crucial question. Which of these two men, John McCain and Barack Obama, should we elect to the office of President of the United States? Would that the answer were clear cut! I sincerely wish that it was, but it is NOT. Neither of them are particularly well suited for the job.
In the end, it will not matter who won or lost this debate. What will matter is the arguments we presented. Obviously, you think that the answer IS clear. You think John McCain SHOULD be the next President of the United States, but you my friend are not the only person in this country. You have declared yourself an 'independent'. That makes your burden of proof much greater. Why should Republicans pay any attention to you? Especially when you WILL NOT make a case for your candidate of choice and spend nearly all your time trying to make a case against me, the devil that is true, but a REPUBLICAN devil. Seventy percent of Republicans polled are unhappy with John McCain. Why do you suppose that is, Bubba?
What John McCain has done, in effect, is to abandon his own party in the hopes of creating a personality cult for himself. His appeal is to liberal 'Republicans', 'Independents' and 'Demcorats Light'. All but one feature of his campaign is fully in line with the Democrats.
In essence, what you and John McCain are telling us Republicans is that the time for our party has come and gone. That we should just drop all of our concerns and support you and John McCain uncritically because he is championing military efforts in the Middle East to the exclusion of ALL ELSE.
Well, Bubba. I do not agree with you on this. You have not, so far, made a good case FOR John McCain. The truth is, I don't think a good case CAN be made for John McCain unless you are a Democrat and they already prefer Barack Obama. How gorramned silly can a man be? John McCain wants to run as the Republican Nominee for President, but he has no use for the positions or sensibilities of his fellow Republicans. I am in no way impressed with this guy. Nor am I impressed with your attempts to play the bully instead of arguing FOR your guy.
Re:''This little ruckus has not gone on without being noticed'
RE:'Just what do you think you are accomplishing here?'
What do YOU think you are accomplishing here? Why have you gone to so much trouble to refute my arguments and declare me 'delusional'.
Keep your guard up, Bubba.
'Someone who is loyal to his party and actually agrees with the basic tenets of his party.'
John McCain has voted with the party 95% of the time, this year it is closer to 100%. Once again, your argument against him is built more on a visceral dislike of the man and not an honest assessment of his record. In short you are having a tantrum.
I also think it is hysterical that you are lecturing about loyalty to the republican party (or the country for that matter) when you are talking about voting for obama.
'Someone like Mitt Romney, '
We had someone like Mitt Romney running: Mitt Romney. He didn't get the votes. I would have voted for Mitt Romney over Obama as well. That ship has sailed. No point in having a temper tantrum over it. DONE DEAL.
'You have unthinkingly swallowed Lou Dobbs 'reasoning' without considering the implications.'
I have watched about 30 seconds of Lou Dobbs in my life.
'Has it not crossed your mind that you might want to exercise some caution before accepting that thesis?'
The counter thesis: Voting for someone because you know full well that their policies are disastrous yet you are under the stupid illusion that they and their disastrous policies which are going to become law can be simply whisked away and replaced with whatever you think is more appropriate. That is not a thesis, it is a fantasy. Whatever Lou is saying it can't be that crazy.
'You made a crack me wanting 'one party rule' in the US. Well, guess what. If the Republicans keep giving ground to the Democrats that is EXACTLY what we will have and we will change our name to the Democratic People's Republic of America. '
Guess what, we had all 3 branches of government in republican hands and they made a mess. They spent like maniacs. They spent like Democrats. One of the only ones trying to hold the line on it was McCain. I know you will say that the republicans need to be humbled to get bacjk to their roots, well they have been and are going to be further. If this isn't enough of a lesson then they are done for.
'The Democrats are doing everything they can think of to stifle speech in this country and, much to my disgust, John McCain has sided with them. '
Yeah, that 'everything they can think of to stifle speech in this country' bill that he passed was a real mistake... Oh wait a minute, that is just a part of your visceral dislike for the man and has no basis in reality...
'We dare not say anything that might Senator McCain's Democrat buddies lest we are willing to suffer his ire. '
You poor dear.
'It does not do your advocacy any good to damn the devil.'
I find what you are advocating to be incredibly dishonorable, self defeating and stupid. It needs damning because it will lead to the entrenchment of the very things you claim to be against. (A claim which I am deeply suspicious of at this point.)
'Your focus should be on making a case for your client, John McCain. Your secondary mission is to make a case against his nemesis, Barack Obama. '
Yes.
'Calling me names and attacking me serves your purposes not one iota.'
See the whole 'dishonorable' part.
'YES! I have taken the position of the devil! This is an inquisition to determine the answer to a crucial question. Which of these two men, John McCain and Barack Obama, should we elect to the office of President of the United States?'
I have done both advocate for McCain and advocate againstand Obama. Where the 'names' come in to play is that I believe that you have either 1) rationalized your dislike for McCain into voting for everything that you supposedly stand against. or 2) You are being disingenuous and are trying to polish an argument that you will use to cleave off the hard right from the McCain campaign. Either way, you are advocating for something that you have stated will be a disaster for the country. If I were to post something positive about McCain that can be used as a negative in your little 'grand scheme'. A negative about Obama is now a positive because it will help bring about collapse. Phillip K Dick used to write stories with themes like this. They were amusing. This is just getting old.
'Would that the answer were clear cut! '
For the very reasons you have stated and acknowledged McCain is a better presidential candidate then Obama. It couldn't be more clear cut.
'Neither of them are particularly well suited for the job.'
I disagree, but it has always, ALWAYS been about choosing the person you think will screw up least. By your own admission that person is McCain.
'You think John McCain SHOULD be the next President of the United States, but you my friend are not the only person in this country.'
Thanks for clearing that up.
'Why should Republicans pay any attention to you?'
Because I am advocating for a Republican and the best person for the job, using logical arguments that are not pure pipe dreams. Why should they pay attention to you?
'Especially when you WILL NOT make a case for your candidate of choice '
I have made it all over this board. What the hell is wrong with you?
'spend nearly all your time trying to make a case against me,'
You wont see the obvious and you are deliberately trying to injure the country. That makes you worse then the fools just doing it by accident.
'Seventy percent of Republicans polled are unhappy with John McCain.'
According to what poll? The polls that matter have been taken and he is our nominee. What are the percentage of republicans that are happy with Obama? That would be only you.
'What John McCain has done, in effect, is to abandon his own party in the hopes of creating a personality cult for himself.'
That is simply nonsense.
'In essence, what you and John McCain are telling us Republicans is that the time for our party has come and gone. '
No, what I am telling you is that the other side has worked harder, smarter, has raised more money and is putting out a candidate that is truly dangerous. I am saying that the time for sorting all this out is over. we need to unite around the man that we have in order to stop the one that they are putting forth. We can have our say in a McCain administration but it will require more work then it would have with, say, Reagan. Perhaps if we had been willing to put in the work then Bush wouldn't have gone off the rails like he did. THEY ARE WINNING BECAUSE THEY HAVE WORKED HARDER and that is the American way. Regardless, this election comes down to having a fighting chance or no chance at all. If we elect McCain we can still have an effect if we do not then will not. Again, are you afraid you are going to have to get off your ass?
'That we should just drop all of our concerns and support you and John McCain uncritically because he is championing military efforts in the Middle East to the exclusion of ALL ELSE.'
To say that that is the only disagreement that he has with the Obama campaign is an outright lie. It is beyond disingenuous, it is an obvious, provable lie.
'. You have not, so far, made a good case FOR John McCain'
Later I will go through the previous posts and cut and paste the ignored comments that you will not allow yourself to understand because you are a stubborn, self-deceiving, sees what he wants to see leftist.
' John McCain wants to run as the Republican Nominee for President,'
Not wants, IS running. And your choice is him or the other guy, as I have said for weeks.
'Nor am I impressed with your attempts to play the bully instead of arguing FOR your guy.'
Heard the one about the mule and the 2x4? Calling me a 'bully' when you have been stubborn, arrogant, underhanded and dishonorable just makes you sound like a crybaby.
'What do YOU think you are accomplishing here? '
I asked you first. Show some class and answer.
'Keep your guard up, Bubba. '
You are going to have to stab lots more backs before you get to mine.
RE:'John McCain has voted with the party 95% of the time, this year it is closer to 100%. Once again, your argument against him is built more on a visceral dislike of the man and not an honest assessment of his record. In short you are having a tantrum.'
Let's see, he enlisted the aid of George Soros and John Kerry to stifle speech (McCain-Feingold), especially the speech of is own party. He has since reinforced that stance by scolding members of his own party who were attacking Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton for good cause. He sided with Edward Kennedy to make the immigration mess worse, instead of fixing it. And it now becomes clear that he sides with the Democrats to install a positively insane energy policy that ignores the real needs of this country. How is that 100%? And if you weight his supportive acts against the times he has supported the Democrats, his support for Republicans does not amount to very much. I mean, even Harry Reid is against abortion, pornography, drugs, tobacco, et cetera.
What I have a visceral dislike for, Bubba, are the political stances John McCain has made, not the man himself. I never had any personal animosity for John Glenn. I admire him, but I did not and do not support his politics, nor did I support him when he ran for President. Notice also, that I have launched no personal attacks on John McCain. I OPPOSE him because of the domestic policies he champions.
RE:'Guess what, we had all 3 branches of government in republican hands and they made a mess. They spent like maniacs. They spent like Democrats. One of the only ones trying to hold the line on it was McCain. I know you will say that the republicans need to be humbled to get back to their roots, well they have been and are going to be further. If this isn't enough of a lesson then they are done for.'
I don't think that they are anywhere near their roots, yet. In fact, I sometimes wonder if they even know what their roots are. The same could be said of conservatives in general. They very often cannot answer the question, 'What is it that you propose to conserve?' Can it be said that they are returning to their roots by nominating John McCain? The guy who just as recently as Friday supported yet another spending bill to extend unemployment benefits, even though it is not the least bit necessary at the moment? Could it be that both he and the Democrats are anticipating the catastrophe that the Democrats have concocted and John McCain supports? I remind you, we are now buying crude oil from our enemies at the rate of $3.00+ per GALLON.
RE:'I find what you are advocating to be incredibly dishonorable, self defeating and stupid. It needs damning because it will lead to the entrenchment of the very things you claim to be against. (A claim which I am deeply suspicious of at this point.)'
Fair enough. As I have already pointed out, the devil is damned by definition. You still fail to make a case FOR John McCain. You are being thickheaded, fine.
'YES! I have taken the position of the devil! This is an inquisition to determine the answer to a crucial question. Which of these two men, John McCain and Barack Obama, should we elect to the office of President of the United States?
RE:'For the very reasons you have stated and acknowledged McCain is a better presidential candidate then Obama. It couldn't be more clear cut.'
Wrong. I still maintain that John McCain will do MORE harm than Barack Obama.
RE:'I disagree, but it has always, ALWAYS been about choosing the person you think will screw up least. By your own admission that person is McCain.'
Nope. John McCain will do far more harm than Barack Obama will.
RE:'Because I am advocating for a Republican and the best person for the job, using logical arguments that are not pure pipe dreams. Why should they pay attention to you?'
Because this is about what will happen to this country after four years of a GOP led by John McCain. Your focus is on THIS election and the situation in Iraq to the exclusion of all else. And, I must add, it is likely the focus of the majority of Republicans at the moment. I am doing my best to point out another impending disaster. A disaster that will be perpetrated on us by the John McCain and the Republicans who share his political astigmatism.
RE:'You wont see the obvious and you are deliberately trying to injure the country. That makes you worse then the fools just doing it by accident.'
Oh, brother! You grossly underestimate the power and will of the American people. You have declared them hapless sheep. They aren't. How do you suppose they are going to react to $20/ gallon gasoline? That is what we are going to get whether McCain wins or Obama wins. Why? Because there is no significant difference in their energy policies. This is just for starters.
'Seventy percent of Republicans polled are unhappy with John McCain.'
According to what poll? The polls that matter have been taken and he is our nominee. What are the percentage of republicans that are happy with Obama? That would be only you.
'What John McCain has done, in effect, is to abandon his own party in the hopes of creating a personality cult for himself.'
RE:'No, what I am telling you is that the other side has worked harder, smarter, has raised more money and is putting out a candidate that is truly dangerous. I am saying that the time for sorting all this out is over. we need to unite around the man that we have in order to stop the one that they are putting forth. We can have our say in a McCain administration but it will require more work then it would have with, say, Reagan. Perhaps if we had been willing to put in the work then Bush wouldn't have gone off the rails like he did.'
George Bush was off the rails BEFORE HE GOT ELECTED.
RE:'THEY ARE WINNING BECAUSE THEY HAVE WORKED HARDER and that is the American way. Regardless, this election comes down to having a fighting chance or no chance at all. If we elect McCain we can still have an effect if we do not then will not. Again, are you afraid you are going to have to get off your ass?'
They are winning mostly because Republicans lend them credibility by compromising with them. Again, the 'center' of American politics has drifted leftwards since the days of FDR. Now it is accelerating. It is something of a struggle when you are fighting free bread and circuses and news medial long sympathetic with leftist causes. Compromises with leftist evil are little different from economic subsidies. When you subsidize something, you get more of it. When you compromise with evil you get more of it. When you compromise with socialism, you get more of it. Even the very best of rear guard actions give up ground.
RE:'To say that that is the only disagreement that he has with the Obama campaign is an outright lie. It is beyond disingenuous, it is an obvious, provable lie.'
So prove it!
RE:'Later I will go through the previous posts and cut and paste the ignored comments that you will not allow yourself to understand because you are a stubborn, self-deceiving, sees what he wants to see leftist.'
That might prove instructive for the both of us.
RE:'Not wants, IS running. And your choice is him or the other guy, as I have said for weeks.'
I stand corrected. I got too far south in the mouth and you got me fair and square.
'Nor am I impressed with your attempts to play the bully instead of arguing FOR your guy.'
RE:'I asked you first. Show some class and answer.'
What you and I both are doing is carrying on a public debate. That debate is taking place on a web site with very high traffic. It is about as loud a megaphone as either of us could hope to have. It IS reaching the right people. It IS making a difference.
www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/06/why_a_mccain_win_may_be_bad_ fo.html
RE:'You are going to have to stab lots more backs before you get to mine.'
Oh, you mean the way John McCain stabbed Republicans in the back with McCain-Feingold? The way he enlisted the aid of George Soros and John Kerry for help in wielding the knife? You needn't worry about that. I have confronted you head on. I have invited you to fight as hard as you please. After all, my best ally in this struggle is none other than your client.
'Let's see, he enlisted the aid of George Soros and John Kerry to stifle speech (McCain-Feingold), especially the speech of is own party. '
He did not 'enlist the aid of George soros'. McCain/Finegold is a bad law. OK? Indeed, it has, ironically hurt McCain more then it has anyone else.
'He has since reinforced that stance by scolding members of his own party who were attacking Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton for good cause.'
When? Telling someone not to mock obamas middle name is not 'reinforcing' McCain finegold. (At this point it is obvious that you are going to toss as much cr*p at him in order to see what sticks, right? Great.
'He sided with Edward Kennedy to make the immigration mess worse,'
OK, you have them, the 2 biggest legislative 'mistakes' that McCain has had in decades of public service. The first one has haunted him more then anyone else, has had no real effect because advocacy groups just start 501c cooperations to get around the law and the second one was stopped by people LIKE ME who flooded the senate switchboard, wrote dozens of letters and got off our rear ends to make sure it didn't happen.
A couple of very important things happened there, 1) McCain has promised to reverse his direction and push for an enforcement first approach showing that he does listen to his base. 2) It shows that people CAN change the direction of the debate in Washington when they get off their rear ends and demand it. For the bazillionth time; do you think Obama is going to listen to your demands?
Here is the thing about stating that. I know that you know that he wont. I know that you know that he will be a disaster, I know that you know that he 'hates the USA', yet those are all selling points in your upside down world. Aside from being inherently anti-American and poisonous to the country, it is not going to get you to where you want to go.
'And it now becomes clear that he sides with the Democrats to install a positively insane energy policy that ignores the real needs of this country.'
There are 2 candidates that are running for office. Obama will continue the ban on offshore drilling and drilling within the states themselves. McCain will allow it within the states and offshore as long as the states approve it. He has given them economic incentives to improve it. As for ANWR, oh well. Better to get on the phone and start a group for drilling offshore around Florida or in the Dakotas.
www.americansolutions.com
seminolevoice.com/Seminole_Voice/article.asp?ID=569
www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601170&refer=home&sid=ayj1uo_gdNI4
'What I have a visceral dislike for, Bubba, are the political stances John McCain has made, not the man himself. '
I think that you have characterized compromise as capitulation. Regardless, supposedly the last time humans ran into a perfect person they nailed him to a cross. McCain isn't perfect, however he has done more for this country then Obama ever will, even if he is elected. Especially if he is elected.
'I OPPOSE him because of the domestic policies he champions.'
Firstly I think you have deliberately closed yourself off to te factthat there isa lot that can be worked with in McCains positions and secondly, most importantly; you are trying to rationalize supporting more EXTREME versions of the policies that you supposedly object to. I really wish you would sit down, without ego and stubbornness and examine that position and where it will leave the country.
I do not like my youngest nephew because he puts on his Sunday school shoes and kicks me in my bad leg. So... Am I going to vote to not spend time with the little monkey with the idea that sooner or later 'that what does not kill me will only make me stronger'? Maybe If I spent lots of time with the little bastard he could turn me in to Carl Lewis? Or am I going to vote to whack the little SOB who takes after the in laws in the rear end until he runs away and grows up? That pretty much sums up your 'strategy'. I made my choice and I ain't getting kicked in the shin.
Here is what you miss over and over: CONSERVATIVES WILL HAVE A FIGHTING CHANCE WITH MCCAIN, THEY WILL NOT WITH OBAMA. That is all you are going to get this time around. All or nothing is going to leave you with nothing.
'I remind you, we are now buying crude oil from our enemies at the rate of $3.00+ per GALLON. '
The whole crude argument seems to be at the heart of your objections with the man in that it always goes back to that. You are up against a law signed into effect during the Clinton administration. You are up against people who d not want drilling in their back yard, you are up against people who have been indoctrinated by this global warming nonsense and you are up decades of inaction. With oil prices at what they are you and I have a chance to push for more domestic drilling but the object at rest tends to stay at rest. It certainly WILL stay at rest if people are satisfied with it being at rest and don't do any pushing to get it going.
If Obama gets his way oil prices will plummet. Why? After the initial price spikes up to $400/bbl when Iran and al Aaeda are handed Iraq's oil wealth there will be a world wide recession/ depression which will lesson international and probably domestic demand. Do you think people are going to want to drill when oil is back down to $20 a bbl? Your time is NOW and your only hope is getting McCain in because he wont veto bills that will increase drilling outside of Anwr and Obama will.
'Fair enough. As I have already pointed out, the devil is damned by definition.'
Don't flatter yourself, the Devil is evil with a purpose. You are just shooting yourself in the foot and trying to get others to do the same. We need to be smarter and work harder, not only against the opposition but within the party itself.
'. You still fail to make a case FOR John McCain.'
Well, I disagree. I have all over this board. I haven't centralized them in to a position paper though, which I will. (I am honestly pressed for time and it is easier for me to pick apart your arguments then to formulate an all encompassing one of my own. I am not interested in just tossing out a boiler plate, 'because the alternative is rewarding everything they have done thereby guaranteeing its continuation' type deal.)
'You are being thickheaded, fine. '
That hurts my feelings and you are being a 'bully'. I am 'not impressed'. I honestly believe it is you who are being deliberately obtuse because you want me to state something that you want to hear. I can see how McCain isn't everything you have ever wanted in a candidate, but you have stupidly rationalized that in to supporting someone who hates the USA by your own admission:
'Barack Obama hates the United States.'- Noharness
'Which of these two men, John McCain and Barack Obama, should we elect to the office of President of the United States?'
You have answered the question yourself. Over and over. You are advocating for Obama BECAUSE you believe he will be a disaster.
'Wrong. I still maintain that John McCain will do MORE harm than Barack Obama. '
By compromising with the democrats...
'Nope. John McCain will do far more harm than Barack Obama will.'
Again, by compromising with the democrats... So your brilliant 'strategy' is to give them everything they want so they do not have to compromise with anyone.
I noticed that you ran like hell from the 'What social program that has been created has ever been voluntarily given back? Question. Am I here to just answer all your questions and you don't ever answer mine? Isn't tat a bit rude?
During the time that you propose to give them complete control over everything they will be changing the character of the country in ways that will NOT be easily undone. Instead of holding them at the door you are going to give them everything they want, some of which will be IMPOSABLE to do away with. Especially when we can't get our base to stop our own excessed.
'Oh, brother! You grossly underestimate the power and will of the American people.'
Then why aren't we drilling? Why aren't we stopping illegal immigration? Why didn't we drop our rifles and run from Iraq? It isn't so simple as you put it, now is it? You also underestimate that there are a good portion of the American public that are seriously committed to everything you do not want and once they get some of it they are going to want all of it. I see and hear it every blasted day. There are plenty in these blue states that have no problem with socialism or even communism, they have learned to call it 'progressive' or 'fair'. If they see that they are getting what they want and it isn't working the solution will be to get MORE of what they want. (We have been through this over and over)
'Why? Because there is no significant difference in their energy policies.'
Yes there is, McCain is more open to domestic drilling then Obama is. He wants nuclear power, Obama does not. McCain pushed for a new refinery, obama did not. That is just for starters.
'George Bush was off the rails BEFORE HE GOT ELECTED. '
That pesky democracy for you, other people have free will, they should be punished for it, right? Lets help have a catastrophe to teach the idiots a lesson... Who is underestimating the American public now?
'They are winning mostly because Republicans lend them credibility by compromising with them'
NO ONE was saying: 'Lets behave like pigs at the trough because that ill be compromising with the democrats'. It is that, and the war in Iraq that have the republicans in the fix that they are in. NOT 'COMPROMISE'. The Iraq war had support from the democrats, until it started going badly. then they tried to lose it and the republicans did not compromise. It cost many of them their jobs. It cost Lieberman his position in the democratic party because he compromised with the republicans.
The American people are voting democratic mostly because of he Iraq war. Where have the republicans compromised with them on that? Indeed, most of the democrats trying to lose this war voted for it. This is what you want to reward!
'Again, the 'center' of American politics has drifted leftwards since the days of FDR.'
I disagree, it swings back and forth. What FDR social programs that outlasted his administration have been given up by the way?
'Now it is accelerating. '
So instead of holding the line and pushing back, which CAN BE DONE as it was with FDR, LBJ, Carter and Clinton you want to push it over the edge to teach people a lesson. There are smarter, less destructive ways of doing this that ill not result in economic bankruptcy and terrorist attacks.
' It is something of a struggle when you are fighting free bread and circuses and news medial long sympathetic with leftist causes.'
Gee, life is a struggle, who knew? The opposition is pretty energized. Best capitulate...
'Compromises with leftist evil are little different from economic subsidies.'
YOU WANT TO VOTE FOR THEM! Where did you get the idea that your responsibility to the USA ends with your vote? You have to push, push and push. They are willing to do just that. That is why you perceive your center moving 'left'.
'When you subsidize something, you get more of it.'
YES, and you are voting for it directly which is the ultimate form of subsidization!
' When you compromise with evil you get more of it. '
So better to capitulate to islamist terrorists?
' Even the very best of rear guard actions give up ground. '
My strategy doesn't compromise anything. It is taking the far less worse alternative, even a better alternative then Bush was and continuing to push elected officials to further what I believe are sensible solutions to the problems we face. Your 'solution' compromises EVERYTHING by turning it over to the very people who will make the biggest mess BECAUSE they will make the biggest mess. McCain is an honorable man who sincerely wants the best for the USA. That is not a compromise.
'So prove it!'
Fine, Ill get on it and do a nice little research paper for you that will be tossed back in my face because you are operating under a faulty premise to begin with. You have a wonderful little scenario cooked up to waste my time, don't you? 'Prove that McCain is better, even though I acknowledge he is better, but when you do demonstrate he is better I will use that as an argument against him because what I am after is worse in order to teach all the lunkheads in this country that socialism doesn't work by giving them a huge dose of socialism... '
You are, by your own admission not after the best for the USA, you are after disaster so you can teach people a lesson. Well excuse me for repeating myself, but it is a stupid plan, borne of a fundamental laziness and narcissism and it is doomed to failure.
'That might prove instructive for the both of us.'
So much for packing.
'What you and I both are doing is carrying on a public debate.'
Debates are where questions are posed and answered. You simply duck whatever inconvenient questions that are posed to you and come up with new tasks for me. That isn't debate, that is a long car trip with a 2 year old.
'That debate is taking place on a web site with very high traffic.'
I would be shocked if anyone has gotten this far.
'It IS making a difference.'
Because Stuart Rothenberg is advocating for Obama and using your flawed logic to sell it to the far right as a principled decision? So is Stuart Rothenberg the one you are out to impress? He was already pushing for Obama. Who do you think is hanging on your every duplicitous word?
'
Oh, you mean the way John McCain stabbed Republicans in the back with McCain-Feingold? '
That hasn't stabbed anyone in the back except for himself. It isn't even a bump in the road. McCain has not been supported by George Soros and Obama certainly HAS. We have had this out before as well. How many times do I have to deflate your arguments with counterarguments only to have you trot out the same thing over and over again? When you say something that is wrong ands it is proven wrong to yu that is a mistake. When you repeat it after it has been proven wrong to you that is a lie.
'You needn't worry about that. I have confronted you head on.'
No, you haven't. What you are doing is advocating for the opposition. You call yourself someone who believes in conservative principles yet you are advocating for the most liberal member of the senate because you know he will act accordingly. That makes you underhanded and duplicitous.
'After all, my best ally in this struggle is none other than your client'
My 'client' is the USA. Reading that you think that it needs to be brutalized by stupid socialist programs and attacked by terrorists that have been deliberately emboldened in order to to be taught a lesson by voting for people who are going to do it the most damage is nauseating, stupid and, coming from someone who realizes it, back stabbing.
ARLINGTON, VA. – As John McCain rolls out his energy policy this week, he called for a lifting of the federal moratorium preventing states from exploring for oil off of their coasts. “They have to be lifted so that states can make those decisions,” McCain said. “I’m not dictating to the states that they drill or they engage in oil exploration, I am saying that the moratoria should be lifted so that they have the opportunity to do so. By the way, I would also like to see perhaps additional incentives…in the form of tangible financial rewards if the states decide to lift those moratoria.”
Searching for offshore oil and gas deposits was banned in 1981 by the Outer Continental Shelf moratorium, which prevents the leasing of coastal waters for fossil fuel development. Roughly 85 percent of U.S. coastal areas are currently protected by the moratorium. McCain’s Democratic rival, Barack Obama, voted against a Senate measure last March that would have lifted the ban, and has spoken out against offshore drilling, calling it a “short-term solution.”
McCain admitted offshore drilling would only be helpful in the short term, but would provide a good start in helping the U.S. develop other sources of energy. “We must embark on a national mission to eliminate our dependence on foreign oil and reduce greenhouse gases through the development of alternate energy sources,” McCain said. “Exploration is a step toward the longer term goal.”
thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/16/mccain-let-states-decide-on-offshore -drilling/
By Michael Falcone
ARLINGTON, Va. — With the price of gasoline surging past $4 a gallon in many parts of the country, Senator John McCain called today for the lifting of the federal moratorium on offshore oil drilling for states that want to permit it.
He said that he also favors giving states incentives to allow exploration, part of an energy proposal that he said would be “very helpful in the short term for resolving our energy crisis.”
Mr. McCain, the presumptive Republican nominee, said the impact of high fuel prices was hitting Americans, not only at the pump, but also in the form of rising food prices and threats of inflation.
“We must embark on a national mission to eliminate our dependence on foreign oil and reduce greenhouse gases through the development of alternate energy sources,” Mr. McCain said, adding that he continues to support a summer gas tax holiday.
Mr. McCain has a mixed record on the issue in the Senate. In 2001 and 2006, he voted in favor of offshore oil drilling in Florida, but in 2003 he voted against it in Florida and other states. Mr. McCain has consistently opposed drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.
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And to leave no doubt where Soros or the New York Times stands on the subject:
Daniel J. Weiss, an expert on global warming at the Center for American Progress, a liberal research group, said that Mr. McCain’s call to lift the moratorium was a “partial capitulation'’ to the oil industry in that states that did not want to drill offshore would not have to. But he said it was significant that Mr. McCain made the announcement 24 hours before he was to speak in Texas.
“McCain is handing America’s coasts on a platter to the big oil companies the day before he goes to talk to them in Houston,'’ Mr. Weiss said.
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Mr. McCain plans to discuss the details of his proposal at a speech in Houston on Tuesday.
Go and listen, Hopefully they will make sure you go through a metal detector.
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